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nick lane is a biochemist a writer and a

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professor at university college london

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whose book transformer exposes on the

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origins of life not being so heavily

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contingent on rna as many think but

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instead in something called the krebs

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cycle poetically you can think of this

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as the difference between an information

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theory of life which is the current

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dominant view to one of the

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thermodynamic energy flow of life which

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is nick lane's view as usual click on

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the time stamp in the description to

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skip this intro my name is kurt jay

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mungle i'm a torontonian filmmaker with

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a background in mathematical physics and

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this channel is dedicated to the

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explication of the variegated terrain of

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theories of everything that is primarily

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from a theoretical physics perspective

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so for example grand unification and

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quantum gravity but as well as

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understanding the role consciousness has

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to play to the fundamental laws provided

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these laws exist at all in a form

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knowable to us two quick announcements

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firstly there's a physics and

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consciousness contest on this channel

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the link to which will be in the

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description as well as the thumbnail is

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over here essentially it's the physics

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version of the three blue one brown math

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contest except ours is for physics and

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consciousness as well if you have an

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idea for some explainer of an advanced

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physics or consciousness concept then

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think about creating a video for this

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and submitting as you have the chance to

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win one thousand dollars brilliant has

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come in to give five thousand among the

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top five so that's one thousand for each

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the second announcement is that there's

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a new theories of everything.org website

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this is a website where you can support

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toe

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curt which is me

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instead of on patreon because patreon

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takes a huge cut as well as paypal takes

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a cut there's many different places that

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take their share and as a creator you

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don't have control over your donations

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so for instance

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patreon may decide to shut you down for

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whatever reason they like there are also

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a variety of benefits that come with

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being a member on the toe website for

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instance you get an ad free version of

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the shows that are coming out an audio

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ad free version that is to say you get a

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private link to the rss feed to download

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the audio versions and they come out

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about 12 to 48 hours sometimes even one

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week prior to you seeing them here on

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youtube just so you know the way that it

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works is that i finished editing and

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then i have to do another run through

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and go through time stamps and catalog

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references and so on that takes time and

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what it means is that i put it out on

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youtube and then i have a lag so that i

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can build up some hype and some audience

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prior to the premiere but then that

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means that i've actually finished the

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episode a couple days before so what

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i'll do is i'll upload simultaneously

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for the members an audio version ads

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free and then later it premieres on

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youtube

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changes this is the way i've always done

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it it's just that i have here an audio

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version for a little while prior which

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i'm going to release to the tow members

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as a thank you and it's going to be ads

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free so that's one of the benefits from

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this point forward there may be

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mid-rolls that is ads in the middle of a

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podcast and that's just part and parcel

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of the toll members of the tow audience

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you are sponsoring toe and then the

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sponsors also sponsor toe so thank you

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for your support those won't be there in

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the audio ads free version for the tow

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members second benefit is that you get

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discounts to any live events when we do

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have them for instance i'd like to do

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carl fristen in london live in front of

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an audience same with ema gilchrist and

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john verveicky at some point another

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benefit is that there will be exclusive

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merch offered to the tow members another

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benefit is that there's a number to text

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me again if that's what you're into

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we're testing this out for about a month

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and yes this is something where i am

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texting you back to your phone

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throughout much of this you can see that

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the artwork here is exquisite on the

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website and that's because it's been

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done by boris martinez costello a link

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to his instagram is in the description

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as well thank you boris thank you so

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much as for today's sponsor it's

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brilliant brilliant.org now brilliant

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has been with toe since near the

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beginning i recommend you check out

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brilliant.org toe if you're interested

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in learning math and physics and science

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so brilliant is a place that you go to

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learn about stem subjects in an

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interactive manner they have these

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bite-sized courses it's extremely easy

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you may think that special relativity is

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beyond you no it's not it's something

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that someone can understand in

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elementary school the way that brilliant

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breaks down these

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extremely ordinarily extremely advanced

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concepts is elementary at some point

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i'll be doing an introduction to

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information theory in particular there's

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david deutsch and chiara marletta's

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constructor theory and because i'd like

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to learn that i decided let me brush up

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on the fundamentals of information

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theory and i took brilliance course just

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to do so over this winter break visit

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brilliant.org toe that's t-o-e to get 20

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off the annual subscription i recommend

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that you don't stop before four lessons

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just keep going until you hit four and

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you'll be greatly surprised at the ease

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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you previously had a difficult time

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grocking okay thank you and enjoy

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today's episode professor thank you so

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much for joining me on

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on toe thank you so much it's my

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pleasure thank you

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why don't we go over your primary thesis

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about how the krebs cycle predates life

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and

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perhaps you can contrast that with a

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reverse predominant view which is that

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genes cause metabolism or genes create

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metabolism or the conditions for

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metabolism yeah i mean this is a this is

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an argument that goes back decades in in

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work on the origin of life and and you

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mentioned the krebs cycle already um

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those ideas also go back decades this is

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nothing particularly new uh from me um

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but

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what's changed is that there is now some

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experimental evidence um and that's been

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lacking so

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i guess the the whole field of biology

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has been obsessed with genes and

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information over

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since the 1960s since the code was

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cracked

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and and the idea that rna

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which is the kind of the template

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taken from dna it can it can catalyze

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things it can also

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supposedly copy itself it can act as a

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template for itself and so on so it's a

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beautiful idea it's called the rna world

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it's been around for quite a long time

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now

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uh and it kind of takes you further and

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further away from biology as we know it

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and i end up in a place where as a

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biochemist i'm i'm i i just don't

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recognize the landscape

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um

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so these ideas of metabolism first

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i suppose the problem there is that it

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asks a lot of the environment

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effectively it's asking

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one specific place one specific setting

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to start out with something like carbon

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dioxide and hydrogen and not much else

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and to make everything from it in the

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absence of genes in the absence of

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enzymes it's it's it's a big ask

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um and uh and people who've argued this

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harold morovitz one of the great um

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biophysicists who worked a lot on the

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origin of life he he linked it in with

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metabolism first and the krebs cycle

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very early

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and he was largely dismissed because

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there wasn't any any serious evidence

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that it could actually work

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and now what's happened over the last

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five or six years is is it's beginning

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to look as if it really does work and

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it's not just the krebs cycle not as a

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complete cycle but as a kind of a linear

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pathway with parts of it it's not the

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whole thing

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um but also other core biochemical

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pathways seem to just spontaneously

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happen

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and they make so much more sense

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of the whole structure of biochemistry

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and then also how it is that information

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comes into biology because it comes in

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it comes in

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in a context where it's already

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optimizing things that are happening

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anyway and so there's there's a kind of

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a

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solving

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metabolism as being a biochemistry

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question or physics question or a

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biology question

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yes

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are those distinctions important

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they are important from the point of

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view of people's backgrounds they're not

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important from the point of view of the

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question because the question is a

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question in science the question is it

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needs physics it needs chemistry it

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needs biology and geology and so on and

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this is part of the problem

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uh that it's been a kind of collision of

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disciplines each of which have

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you know 100 years or more of its own

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intellectual history and ways of seeing

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the question

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so i think

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the the dominant

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way of seeing the question over the last

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really since the miliary experiment in

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1953 has been through the lens of

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chemistry and what the chemists have

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tried to do is what synthetic chemists

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try to do which is to say

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you tell me i need to make a nucleotide

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so i'm going to make you a nucleotide

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i'm going to make you nothing but

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nucleotides it's going to have a high

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yield it's going to be pure i can make

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you 70 and i need to start with cyanide

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therefore this is how life starts

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and from a from a biologist's point of

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view

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um

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well you'd see it the other way around

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you'd say well natural selection

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optimizes things that

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um that you know were worse at the

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beginning and now they're better because

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selection optimized them uh and

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therefore what we're looking for is a

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process that kind of works a bit but is

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really very bad um that means i want a

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low yield it means i want low purity uh

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you know it it kind of turns a hot it

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would it would it would bring any any

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self-respecting synthetic chemist out in

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hives to try and do it that badly

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but that's really what a biologist wants

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to see what a geologist might want to

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see is well what kind of an environment

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00:09:28,389 --> 00:09:25,040
is conducive to

279
00:09:30,230 --> 00:09:28,399
um any of these chemistries

280
00:09:31,190 --> 00:09:30,240
are there settings on the ancient earth

281
00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:31,200
that are

282
00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:32,640
conducive to

283
00:09:36,949 --> 00:09:34,959
cyanide for example or to co2 or

284
00:09:39,269 --> 00:09:36,959
whatever it may be so there's this this

285
00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:39,279
collision really between disciplines and

286
00:09:44,150 --> 00:09:42,240
ways of thinking about it and we can't

287
00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:44,160
all be right

288
00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:46,560
and people have spent decades of their

289
00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:48,240
lives

290
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,920
um

291
00:09:52,949 --> 00:09:51,279
seeing seeing a question from a

292
00:09:55,030 --> 00:09:52,959
particular point of view

293
00:09:57,110 --> 00:09:55,040
and it's it's very difficult for any

294
00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:57,120
human being to kind of step back and and

295
00:10:00,070 --> 00:09:58,800
stand on a soapbox and say well i got it

296
00:10:02,070 --> 00:10:00,080
all wrong i've just wasted the last

297
00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:02,080
three decades of my life

298
00:10:05,910 --> 00:10:04,320
often the answer is somewhere between

299
00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:05,920
between different theories different

300
00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:08,000
hypotheses it's a bit of this and a bit

301
00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:09,360
of that but you can't test that you've

302
00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:11,600
got to be purist about what you test

303
00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:14,000
um and and you know most of us are going

304
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:16,560
to be wrong about most of it and and

305
00:10:19,829 --> 00:10:18,880
that can mean that you end up

306
00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:19,839
with

307
00:10:24,310 --> 00:10:22,000
quite unpleasant personal animosities

308
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:24,320
between the researchers in the field

309
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:25,920
okay so the chemist or the synthetic

310
00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:27,600
chemists see that there are certain

311
00:10:31,829 --> 00:10:29,680
building blocks to life and they want to

312
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:31,839
create those in the lab artificially or

313
00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,600
starting from simpler ingredients and

314
00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:35,600
then the biologists say no well look if

315
00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:38,160
we have these ingredients the way that

316
00:10:41,829 --> 00:10:40,000
evolutionary biology works that we start

317
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:41,839
from something that's less pure and then

318
00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:44,160
we work upward

319
00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:45,519
yeah the real the real the real

320
00:10:51,190 --> 00:10:47,600
difference here i suppose is is that

321
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:51,200
what the chemists have done is is

322
00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:52,640
it's as if you say

323
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:54,959
right we need we need nucleotides the

324
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,040
building blocks of rna and dna we need

325
00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:59,680
amino acids we need to have fatty acids

326
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:01,279
the building blocks of membranes and so

327
00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:03,279
on um so

328
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:05,200
so so go make them for me and the

329
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:06,640
chemists go away and they make all of

330
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:08,880
these things um and they've they've

331
00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:10,480
started with co2 but it doesn't work

332
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:13,200
very well the yields are low and so on

333
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,360
so they put that aside as unworkable

334
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:17,680
chemistry and they start with with

335
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:19,839
cyanide or something which is very

336
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:22,240
energetic but i mean large amounts of

337
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:23,760
cyanide you're practically asking for an

338
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,920
atmosphere which is just saturated with

339
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:27,200
cyanide

340
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:28,000
and

341
00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:32,880
building blocks of life but by with a

342
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,880
starting point that no life ever uses

343
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:37,360
via pathways that life never uses and so

344
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:38,720
it kind of leaves you with the same

345
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:42,480
question which is to say okay so if

346
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:44,399
that's how it started then you end up

347
00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:45,760
with an environment that's got all these

348
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:47,279
building blocks floating around you've

349
00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:49,440
got the perfect primordial suit but but

350
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:51,279
then what happens and there isn't really

351
00:11:55,030 --> 00:11:53,040
an answer to that it has to i mean you

352
00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:55,040
may as well say then a miracle happens

353
00:11:59,509 --> 00:11:57,600
everything has to self-organize

354
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:59,519
whereas

355
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:01,279
why does it invent biochemistry as we

356
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:02,880
know it if that's

357
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:06,160
the worst possible way of doing it so

358
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:07,120
what

359
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,839
biochemist and a bunch of other people

360
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,440
is

361
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:15,600
do these pathways at the core of

362
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:17,519
biochemistry happen spontaneously in the

363
00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:19,279
right environment not very well just a

364
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,040
little bit but

365
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:23,440
whole you know pathways with 10 15 20

366
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:25,600
steps in them that you might say well

367
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:27,279
that's asking a lot of the environment

368
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:29,279
can it happen though and the answer is

369
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:30,399
often yes

370
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:31,680
um

371
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:34,560
at levels that were undetectable 20 or

372
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,560
30 years ago but you know we're in a lab

373
00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:39,360
we're we're doing we're we're looking at

374
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,880
a very small subset of possible

375
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:42,320
conditions we don't really know what the

376
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:43,760
right conditions are so to make it

377
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:46,880
happen at all is a big step forward

378
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:48,560
the issues with the synthetic chemists

379
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,040
is that they can produce the building

380
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:53,279
blocks of life but then they don't show

381
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:54,800
a way of how those building blocks

382
00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,880
interact in order to create life or that

383
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:58,480
the conditions necessary to produce

384
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:01,360
those building blocks are so unrealistic

385
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:03,519
uh to my mind and the chemist of course

386
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:04,959
would disagree

387
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:07,279
and and you know we don't know so much

388
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:09,360
about what the early earth was really

389
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,480
like so

390
00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:12,000
they probably have a point

391
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:15,040
um but to my mind the it's not

392
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:16,639
consistent with what we do know about

393
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:18,160
the early earth it was mostly a water

394
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:20,560
world mostly an ocean there was there

395
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:23,120
was probably one to ten bars of co2 in

396
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:25,440
the atmosphere it's highly doubtful that

397
00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:29,120
there was very much cyanide if any um

398
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,279
perhaps there were some and and the

399
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,880
pathways that they've come up with look

400
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,800
nothing like biochemistry as i know it

401
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:36,480
as a biochemist and so even when you've

402
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,839
answered the problem you've still got to

403
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:40,079
say okay so so how did life start then

404
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,839
you you've got all the building blocks

405
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:43,519
but then what happens next

406
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,040
whereas if what you're looking at is a

407
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:46,800
is an environment which is kind of

408
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:49,120
dynamic and continuously you've got a

409
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,959
continuous flow in say a hydrothermal

410
00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:52,639
vent you've got a continuous reaction

411
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:55,200
going on and remember that you know we

412
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:56,160
are

413
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:59,440
you put a plastic bag over your head and

414
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:00,880
start breathing then your continuous

415
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:02,639
chemical reaction stops

416
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:06,240
uh and and life stops so

417
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:06,959
we

418
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:12,320
this sophisticated way of making sure

419
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:14,000
this reaction is happening in each and

420
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:15,600
every one of our cells

421
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:17,199
so take all of that away and say well

422
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,720
how can you have a continuous chemical

423
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:19,920
reaction that's happening which is

424
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,399
converting the environment into more of

425
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:24,000
me you might say

426
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,560
uh and the answer is well you need a you

427
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:28,160
need a dynamic environment something

428
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:29,519
like a hydrothermal vent where you've

429
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:31,440
got a continuous flow of reactive things

430
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:34,800
that are mixing and and reacting and

431
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:38,480
producing structures right there

432
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,920
when you use the word pathways or

433
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:42,240
biologists use the word pathways is that

434
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:44,800
referencing the step by the recipe that

435
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:46,000
creates

436
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,000
some end product

437
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:50,639
what is the word pathways yes sorry

438
00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:51,600
this

439
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,360
a lot of people have seen a metabolic

440
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,839
map which kind of is like the the you

441
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:57,360
know map of the london underground or

442
00:15:00,389 --> 00:14:58,639
something except

443
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,399
a whole lot worse

444
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,160
really detailed

445
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:04,160
um

446
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,800
lots of names of particular chemicals

447
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,399
with arrows going from one to the next

448
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:10,399
one and names of enzymes connecting up

449
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,199
the arrows so a pathway would be you

450
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:14,959
start with this compound you end up with

451
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:16,959
that compound and there's 10 steps along

452
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:19,040
that way and and you link them all up

453
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:20,160
and that's the pathway that's a

454
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:22,399
biochemical pathway which starts with

455
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:24,639
this substrate and ends up with this

456
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,120
product and it links them up in a way

457
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,600
which all life does pretty much in this

458
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:31,120
in the heart of biochemistry it's

459
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:32,959
universally conserved not always the

460
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,519
genes or the enzymes but the chemistry

461
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:37,279
itself that underpins it is almost

462
00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:40,720
always the same across all of life ah ah

463
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:41,839
so you're not just looking for the

464
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:42,959
products you're also looking for a

465
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,120
similar pathway exactly or a pathway

466
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:47,199
that's similar enough that conceivably

467
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,800
with variation it could have moved on to

468
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:50,880
what exactly okay yes

469
00:15:54,389 --> 00:15:51,920
yes

470
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,399
and this this all together is is is

471
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:56,560
we're talking about scores of reactions

472
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:58,240
maybe a couple of hundred types of

473
00:16:03,269 --> 00:16:00,720
reaction all linked up in very specific

474
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:03,279
ways which we see in life which is now

475
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,600
encoded by genes

476
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,800
but the

477
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:08,399
you know the question of how did those

478
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,800
genes come to encode that metabolism is

479
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:12,639
a really difficult question unless

480
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:14,320
you're able to turn it on its head and

481
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:16,240
say well the metabolism happens first

482
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:19,120
all this well this network of reactions

483
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:20,959
is spontaneous in the right environment

484
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:23,199
and the genes kind of emerged afterwards

485
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:25,279
and sped it up and optimized it and you

486
00:16:27,749 --> 00:16:26,160
know

487
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:27,759
improved it

488
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:30,160
okay and part of the reason why it's

489
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:31,920
strange to think of genes first

490
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:34,079
producing the metabolism is because the

491
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,680
way that we think of genes is operating

492
00:16:39,749 --> 00:16:37,920
is sequentially incrementally and these

493
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:39,759
pathways are so

494
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:42,000
well it would it's difficult to think of

495
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:43,839
half of a krebs cycle or half of one of

496
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:45,920
these steps as working

497
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:46,959
um

498
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,480
yes and if you if you take it that way

499
00:16:54,069 --> 00:16:52,320
um

500
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:54,079
i mean there are various ways of

501
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:56,160
thinking about this but but how how does

502
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:57,839
a pathway let's say you've got 10 steps

503
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,160
in this in this biochemical pathway

504
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,720
and let's say it's invented by genes

505
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:03,600
how

506
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:05,360
what what do those genes

507
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,160
do

508
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:08,160
so there's two main ideas one of them is

509
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:10,240
well you've got plenty of the product in

510
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:11,039
the

511
00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:16,400
beginning to eat that product in some

512
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:18,319
way and so now there's less of it so if

513
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,959
you if you can come up with a gene which

514
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:23,600
takes the precursor to that product and

515
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:26,400
converts it into the product then you've

516
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:27,120
got

517
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,559
an advantage

518
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:30,320
so you kind of start at the end of the

519
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:32,160
pathway and work your way back one step

520
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:34,160
at a time or you can do it the other way

521
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,160
around you can start with the precursor

522
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,480
and work your way up one step at the

523
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:41,039
time but both of those ideas basically

524
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,559
assume that all of the intermediates

525
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,720
along that pathway exist at high

526
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:46,720
concentrations in the environment and

527
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:48,880
that you can get at them and that they

528
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,520
are useful in some way and

529
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,039
you know all of these are very hand

530
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:55,200
waving ideas and there's basically no

531
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:56,720
truth to any of them

532
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:59,039
whereas if what you're assuming is that

533
00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:00,400
actually

534
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,160
going from one to another along this

535
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:04,640
pathway at a low level

536
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:06,240
it just happens you know these things

537
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:07,840
just interconvert into each other

538
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:09,280
there's not

539
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,240
and so

540
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:12,080
at that point a gene which which speeds

541
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:15,039
up any step will tend to

542
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:17,760
will tend to increase the whole pathway

543
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:19,280
so it's much it's much easier as a

544
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:20,960
question in evolutionary biology about

545
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,280
how how do you then um

546
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,280
kind of ramp up you because all you're

547
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:27,039
doing is increasing the flux through a

548
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:29,120
system that exists anyway

549
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:30,799
and where does energy enter into this

550
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,200
the way that i understand your the

551
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,360
difference between you and how biology

552
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,440
ordinarily thinks is with regard to

553
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:39,760
information based is the biological way

554
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,919
of thinking and then yours is energy

555
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:43,679
based so i haven't heard energy come

556
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:45,280
into this and i'd like to hear it yeah

557
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:46,640
yeah

558
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:48,000
so

559
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:52,000
you look at the tree of life and this is

560
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,880
another

561
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:54,799
way in which biology has kind of

562
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:57,280
intruded into the question of the origin

563
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:59,600
of life over the last couple of decades

564
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:00,640
um

565
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:02,720
what does the tree of life say about the

566
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:05,520
very base uh the the kind of bacteria

567
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:07,919
that are the most ancient the the very

568
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:10,160
first ones they're not the very first

569
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:12,080
ones these are things with genes with

570
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,760
enzymes they're pretty sophisticated

571
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:15,679
cells this is the common ancestor of all

572
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,760
of life as we know it

573
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,679
and you could say well it's not got much

574
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:21,600
to do with the origin of life or you

575
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:23,760
could say well perhaps it points in that

576
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,880
direction

577
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,880
we can keep an open mind about that so

578
00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:28,480
what does it do what are the what do

579
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:29,919
these deepest branches in the tree of

580
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:31,760
life do well they're bacterial-like

581
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:34,640
things archaea and bacteria

582
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:36,559
and they're pretty much autotrophic

583
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:38,640
which means that they are converting

584
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,240
gases in the environment into organic

585
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:44,400
molecules like photosynthesis except

586
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,080
probably not photosynthesis

587
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:48,559
um and they're almost universally

588
00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:52,400
starting with co2 and hydrogen

589
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,320
and that's the very core of biochemistry

590
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:56,480
you go you react co2 and hydrogen and

591
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:58,799
you get krebs cycle intermediates that's

592
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,640
that's the first things that you get and

593
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,400
from there you get amino acids and from

594
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,559
there you get nucleotides and so on

595
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,720
the problem is that hydrogen and co2

596
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:08,640
don't react very easily this is the

597
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,720
problem that the chemists had for a long

598
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:12,559
time you can heat them up you can add a

599
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,440
catalyst it's you know it it does work

600
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:18,240
but it's uh it's difficult it's only

601
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,520
been in the last few years that people

602
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:21,600
have succeeded in doing it now what life

603
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:22,799
does

604
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,559
is it uses effectively an electrical

605
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,240
charge on the membrane around the cell

606
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:28,159
to drive that reaction

607
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:30,640
um the problem is it's it's

608
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:32,400
thermodynamically favored which is to

609
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,159
say if you've got a mixture of hydrogen

610
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,159
and co2 and you mix them up at say 50

611
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:38,559
degrees centigrade thermodynamically you

612
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:40,400
should get cells it's actually more

613
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:43,280
stable to have cells than it is to have

614
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:46,480
a disequilibrium of hydrogen and co2

615
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:48,000
they want to react so long as there's no

616
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,280
oxygen around

617
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:51,280
but kinetically there's a barrier and

618
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:52,640
they don't react

619
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,039
um and that kinetic barrier is broken

620
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:57,360
down by by this electrical charge on the

621
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:58,400
membrane

622
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,919
sorry just to clarify when you say you

623
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,480
get cells you don't mean cells as we

624
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:04,559
know it as life you mean that there's a

625
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:06,080
membrane and it's oily and then there's

626
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,840
a separation or

627
00:21:12,070 --> 00:21:10,080
i i mean that um

628
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:12,080
if you look at the thermodynamics

629
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,679
theoretical thermodynamics that goes

630
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:16,400
back to jan ammond and tom mccollum and

631
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:18,320
they have considered under the kind of

632
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:19,760
conditions that i'm thinking about this

633
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:21,520
is 20 years ago now

634
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:22,960
under the kind of conditions that i'm

635
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:24,720
talking about in alkaline hydrothermal

636
00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:26,799
vents at 50 degrees centigrade in

637
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:28,840
alkaline conditions

638
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:31,840
um energy is released

639
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:32,720
um

640
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:35,919
to make amino acids and fatty acids

641
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:39,120
and overall total cell biomass

642
00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:43,039
releases energy from hydrogen co2

643
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:46,000
so yes it's favored it's it's actually

644
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:47,360
energetically

645
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:50,240
more favored to have literally cells

646
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,720
than it is to have a mixture of gases

647
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:55,120
that's what's driving life the problem

648
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:56,240
is that there's a barrier to it

649
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:58,159
happening and that barrier is broken

650
00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,600
down by this electrical charge on

651
00:22:02,950 --> 00:22:01,919
membrane so my kind of driving question

652
00:22:04,630 --> 00:22:02,960
is

653
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,640
where did that come from

654
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:06,320
how did it get going

655
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,520
why do you think it is that there's so

656
00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:09,760
much disagreement about the definition

657
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,760
of life so in mathematics you just

658
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:13,520
simply state the definition there's no

659
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,760
squabbling over that ah but have you

660
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:17,120
come up with the definition of life in

661
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:20,000
mathematics i mean the answer is no

662
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,679
um

663
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,240
it's basically it's not

664
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:26,159
it's not easy to put it into an equation

665
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:27,440
i think that's

666
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:30,240
i i i personally think the is the wrong

667
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:31,760
question because

668
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,559
life is a process over time it's it's

669
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:36,400
not a thing

670
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:37,360
um

671
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:39,520
and the origin of life is is not a

672
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:41,360
moment it's not

673
00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:42,880
there isn't one moment where something

674
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:44,799
becomes alive it's a continuum from

675
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:47,200
prebiotic chemistry right the way up to

676
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:48,880
you know quite sophisticated cells with

677
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,600
genes and macromolecular machines motors

678
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:54,159
and what have you um and every step

679
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,840
along that way there isn't one moment

680
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:57,919
where you would say it's now alive

681
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:59,360
there's suddenly something goes like

682
00:23:01,830 --> 00:23:00,240
that

683
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,840
and you know you can you could argue

684
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:04,000
about is a virus alive or not i would

685
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:05,360
say it is but it doesn't have a

686
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,880
metabolism of its own and it wouldn't

687
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:08,799
fall within most definitions of life

688
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:11,200
what about jumping jeans retro elements

689
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:13,120
these kind of things are they alive what

690
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:14,720
about something which is dormant to

691
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:17,520
spore in in deep space is it alive no

692
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,200
it's not living now but it could come

693
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,039
back to life so there's all these

694
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:23,600
ambiguities about

695
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,760
i i think what is living is a much

696
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:27,360
better question

697
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,799
and you know it's very easy to kind of

698
00:23:32,350 --> 00:23:30,240
wave your arms and say well it needs

699
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,360
metabolism in these information in these

700
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,240
compartmentalization those things are

701
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,720
probably true um

702
00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:38,640
but

703
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:42,240
definition that you come up with of life

704
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:44,240
can usually be attacked the the classic

705
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:46,000
one is uh from

706
00:23:49,270 --> 00:23:47,919
is is known as the the working

707
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:49,280
definition of life

708
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,480
from nasa

709
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,240
and i probably can't get this quite

710
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,320
right but it's roughly a

711
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,000
self-sustaining

712
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,320
system capable of making copies of

713
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:00,159
itself or capable of evolving or

714
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:01,840
something along those lines

715
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:03,760
um and i have a real problem with the

716
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:05,200
word self-sustaining because it's

717
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:06,799
basically sustained by the environment

718
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:09,120
by disequilibrium in them in the

719
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:11,600
environment but you know people have

720
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:13,279
poked fun at it by saying well by that

721
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:15,039
definition a rabbit is not alive only a

722
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,480
pair of rabbits would be alive because

723
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:19,440
only a pair of rabbits could make a copy

724
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,960
right right right

725
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:22,960
okay so there's some arbitrariness to it

726
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:24,960
because it's akin to saying when does a

727
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:26,880
grain of sand become a heap by adding

728
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:29,440
more and more greens okay yes so then it

729
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:30,960
would be better to characterize it as a

730
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,830
uh it's certainly not binary yes i mean

731
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,360
you might even say that death looks

732
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:41,520
binary doesn't it but it's even death is

733
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:42,559
not because

734
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:44,799
when we die some of our cells will stay

735
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,919
alive for a while longer it feels binary

736
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:49,520
and therefore the origin of life perhaps

737
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,360
feels binary for exactly the opposite

738
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,520
reasons you know you wonder about when

739
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:55,840
when does it when when does a

740
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,240
when does life begin in in humans

741
00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:00,240
there's terrible arguments about that

742
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:02,000
kind of question and there isn't really

743
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:04,080
a correct answer to it either

744
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:05,360
you know if

745
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:07,600
sperm are alive in some sense but but

746
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:09,360
and a fertilized

747
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:11,840
egg is is alive but it's not really

748
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:13,600
aware of very much but you know where do

749
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:14,400
you draw

750
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,480
a line of where awareness comes in it's

751
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:18,080
it's basically an impossible ask and

752
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:19,600
it's it's a matter of for people to try

753
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,600
and come to an agreement about but it's

754
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:23,760
there isn't a definition

755
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:25,840
so a better question may be

756
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:29,520
when is living or what is living

757
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,799
i remember you said living the word

758
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:32,880
living versus yes yes i mean living is

759
00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:35,520
an active process over time and it's

760
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:37,760
it's it's a continuous reaction that is

761
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:39,039
converting

762
00:25:44,149 --> 00:25:42,159
um the environment into in one way or

763
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:44,159
another more of itself whether that more

764
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,400
of itself is just replace the broken

765
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:48,880
bits or if it's a case of make a copy of

766
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:50,320
the whole cell

767
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:51,360
um

768
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:53,760
or or

769
00:26:02,549 --> 00:25:59,360
through some complicated process of of

770
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,559
sex and so on but in the end

771
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:04,320
life is effectively parasitizing the

772
00:26:08,830 --> 00:26:07,200
environment to make copies of itself

773
00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:08,840
and it does that through

774
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:11,200
metabolism okay so two thoughts occur to

775
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:14,480
me so one is is there a way to put a

776
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:16,240
number like i mentioned a real number

777
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:17,919
but perhaps it's not as simple as that

778
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:20,799
is there a way to place a number to how

779
00:26:24,549 --> 00:26:22,480
much something is characterized by

780
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:24,559
living in the same way that you may say

781
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:26,000
well consciousness is either you either

782
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:27,600
have it or don't but then there's some

783
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:29,200
theories like tononi's integrated

784
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,360
information theory where you have phi

785
00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:33,360
which is like okay if you have a large

786
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:35,039
number okay so that's the first thought

787
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:36,240
and then i'll say the second one then

788
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,760
i'll come back to them just so that i

789
00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:39,120
don't forget them then the second

790
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,039
thought was how far can we generalize

791
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,440
this is so-and-so living

792
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,200
because in the self-development world

793
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:47,120
when you read you walk by the sections

794
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:49,120
in the library they'll say yeah you're

795
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:50,840
alive but you're not

796
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:54,000
living your purpose uh well that's

797
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,440
that's kind of

798
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:57,520
that's playing with semantics okay so

799
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:59,279
that's taking it too far okay okay so

800
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,720
let's focus on the first one is there a

801
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:02,320
way i mean i'm using living in the in

802
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:04,080
the in the in the broadest possible

803
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:04,960
sense

804
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,400
uh so so but you know

805
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:12,000
consciousness you know if you look at

806
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:13,440
the medical literature there's all kinds

807
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:15,120
of gradations of conscious states

808
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:16,720
whether you're fully anesthetized or

809
00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:19,120
fully unconscious or in some lower level

810
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,120
of consciousness and so on and it's you

811
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:23,200
know it it's it's worth looking at that

812
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:24,720
medical literature every now and then to

813
00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:26,400
realize that it's not an on or off

814
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:28,400
switch there either

815
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:29,840
yeah i'm super interested in speaking

816
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:31,440
with you about consciousness so we'll

817
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:33,679
get to that toward the end just so you

818
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,440
know i've been

819
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,080
just absorbing your work for the past

820
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:40,720
maybe two weeks or so every single day

821
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:41,760
and

822
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:44,000
i i have my own nick cycle so people

823
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:45,600
have krebs cycle have a knick cycle in

824
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:47,039
my brain

825
00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:49,360
that sounds

826
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:50,190
sounds hard

827
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:51,919
[Laughter]

828
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:53,520
so i just you know my background isn't

829
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,080
math and physics yeah yeah yeah and i

830
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,960
don't like biology because there's so

831
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:00,880
many terms too many times

832
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,440
there's pyruvic acid which i assume so i

833
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:05,520
can only apologize about my book i mean

834
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:07,120
you know it's uh

835
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:08,880
it's basically a problem with biology

836
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:11,279
and physicists always have this problem

837
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:12,720
with biology

838
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:14,320
yeah and and you know it's

839
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:15,600
understandable

840
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,720
um

841
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:18,000
and

842
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:20,159
there are i think the the most

843
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:21,760
interesting questions in biology now

844
00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:23,840
really of questions in physics

845
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:25,760
um but because we've had this almost

846
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,520
kind of phase

847
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,279
separation between physicists and

848
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:30,399
biologists

849
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,320
there's not enough people who are

850
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,960
biophysicists who are grappling with the

851
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:36,559
biophysics of life

852
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:38,159
and so biology has gone off in the

853
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,760
direction of information but without

854
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,279
really a very serious grounding in

855
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:43,279
information theory as a physicist

856
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:45,760
understand it uh it's really about you

857
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:47,200
know just just

858
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:48,559
let's sequence the hell out of

859
00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:49,919
everything and see if we can find a

860
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,399
pattern um and that's kind of

861
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:54,480
intellectually very shallow there are

862
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,720
patterns there and we've learned

863
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:58,000
you know almost everything about the

864
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,679
world from doing that

865
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,279
but it doesn't really tell us you know

866
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,960
your question what is life and what is

867
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:04,559
living and those things

868
00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:07,120
the answer is not to be found in in

869
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:09,440
sequencing all the organisms you know

870
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,200
you have to take a step back and think

871
00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:13,200
about well what is metabolism and what

872
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,200
are genes and which came first and how

873
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:16,880
do they relate to each other

874
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:19,039
uh and what processes on the planet are

875
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:20,799
driving this whole process and these are

876
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,880
often questions in physics

877
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:25,279
um but biology is so intrinsically

878
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,799
complex

879
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:28,799
that physicists very often

880
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:30,799
get pissed off and back away and you

881
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:31,840
know

882
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,039
they can't deal with too much pyruvate

883
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:37,200
yeah there's a flurry of unmitigated

884
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:39,440
polysyllabic terminology that it's

885
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:41,360
difficult to become acquainted with like

886
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,039
it's a moral i the way that i imagine is

887
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:45,360
that you become used to it over time and

888
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:47,360
so if you first encounter it then it's

889
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:49,760
overwhelming at least for me but you and

890
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,919
michael evan are responsible for turn in

891
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,880
toe in this channel toward more

892
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:56,399
to interviewing more biology michael

893
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:59,120
levin is doing amazing work and and

894
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,440
you know all this

895
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:03,279
electrical fields controlling

896
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:04,640
development

897
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:06,399
is

898
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:11,200
that to them would probably freak out

899
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:12,559
probably back i don't know what he said

900
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:15,279
to you about this but um you know he he

901
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:18,320
he's obviously right he's obviously

902
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:19,760
found something which is really

903
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:22,320
important um you know his nobel prize

904
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,960
winning stuff he that he's doing in my

905
00:30:28,549 --> 00:30:26,640
opinion um

906
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:28,559
and and it's profound and this is the

907
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:31,679
direction of 21st century biology um and

908
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,600
and you you know it's trying to

909
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,600
understand what what actually is this

910
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:38,000
language of fields in cells you know

911
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:40,640
it's early days in terms of that but

912
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:44,159
most biologists still now would would um

913
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:45,600
back away from it

914
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:47,760
and

915
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:50,080
treat it in some way as pseudoscience or

916
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:50,880
as

917
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,960
you know just not real

918
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:53,919
um

919
00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:55,679
and yet there's you know there's corners

920
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:58,159
of zoology which deal with with you know

921
00:31:02,230 --> 00:31:00,320
electric eels and electric fields in

922
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,240
fish or

923
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,720
magnetic fields in in navigation systems

924
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,559
in birds and insects and whatever else

925
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,320
you know biologists have known about

926
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,559
this stuff for a while not necessarily

927
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:12,559
the development pathways but

928
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:15,679
it's some marginalized small corner

929
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,480
where of a field of information in terms

930
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:21,039
of gene sequences is completely dominant

931
00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:23,840
and genes don't tell you anything about

932
00:31:27,510 --> 00:31:25,600
shape about structure you can look at

933
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,520
any genome you want

934
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,840
and nobody unless they already knew what

935
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:31,679
the organism was that's coded for there

936
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:33,200
would be able to tell you what shape it

937
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,799
is what kind of an organism is it

938
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,240
like i mentioned i have a nick cycle in

939
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:40,480
my head so

940
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:42,000
well i mean that in many ways because i

941
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:44,000
started bicycling more just to get your

942
00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:46,080
audio back in the head so cycling is a

943
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:48,080
great word certain words that you say

944
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,159
strike me because your book is in my

945
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:52,720
working memory currently and you said

946
00:31:57,430 --> 00:31:55,279
20th century biology is going to be the

947
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,440
biology sorry 21st century biologically

948
00:32:02,149 --> 00:31:59,600
the biology of fields okay why don't we

949
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:02,159
expand on that

950
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,039
um

951
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,799
so so that was right at the end of the

952
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:06,880
book uh we're talking about

953
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:10,720
consciousness really um but but also

954
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:12,960
development and how

955
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:15,840
how cells know when to stop nowhere to

956
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,559
go no no no you know there's all kinds

957
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:20,480
of questions that michael levin talks

958
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:21,440
about

959
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,600
from my own point of view

960
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:25,120
um

961
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,399
i've been

962
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:28,640
thinking for a long time about

963
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:31,279
bioenergetics that's my own kind of

964
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:32,480
specialty

965
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,320
and what cells are doing in the

966
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:36,480
mitochondria is effectively pumping

967
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:38,960
protons across a membrane and generating

968
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:40,799
a charge on the membrane and that charge

969
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:42,799
on the membrane is is driving everything

970
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:43,760
else

971
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:47,120
um but i hadn't thought very much about

972
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:49,200
fields as such

973
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:52,480
um because to to generate coherent feels

974
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,159
you you um would need to have quite

975
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:58,399
quite specific morphology

976
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:59,519
um

977
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:01,200
and it's not something i really worried

978
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,120
about very much but if you look at

979
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,440
mitochondria under a microscope what

980
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,840
you'll often see is is is these

981
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:09,519
membranes which are parallel to each

982
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,679
other which are offset by the same

983
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:13,519
degree and you know there's there's a

984
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:15,440
very detailed structure there and the

985
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:17,679
more we know about these structures the

986
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:19,600
more we realize that they play a really

987
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,000
important role in how mitochondria and

988
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,320
energy works it's not a trivial thing

989
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:26,720
those membranes are arranged that way

990
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,039
for a reason and and and

991
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:31,279
and we realize now as well that the

992
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:33,679
the the the motors the atp synthase

993
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:36,080
they're dimers at the end of these

994
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:37,600
christie and all the rest of the

995
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,960
complexes are in the middle and so

996
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,880
you've got a circuit going on you've

997
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,159
basically got a

998
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:44,880
um an oscillating charge

999
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:46,480
um which is

1000
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:48,559
going to produce a field and we've got

1001
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:50,559
multiple parallel christian all lined up

1002
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,760
next to each other and if they're

1003
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:53,519
oscillating in phase then these fields

1004
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:55,279
should be strengthened

1005
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:56,480
um

1006
00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:58,320
you know now if talking in a language

1007
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:59,440
where

1008
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:01,440
you're much more comfortable than i am

1009
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:03,760
but um

1010
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:06,399
if you are able and you know things that

1011
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:08,000
have happened in neurology relatively

1012
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,079
recently if you if you cut

1013
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:12,560
an axon for example and separate it by

1014
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:15,760
up to about 40 micrometers uh an action

1015
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:17,919
potential can still hop the gap

1016
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:19,040
you know it's

1017
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:20,720
we've known about the eeg for more than

1018
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:23,760
a century um the electroencephalogram so

1019
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:25,520
we know that the brain is basically

1020
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:27,839
electrical but amazingly people don't

1021
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:29,200
really know

1022
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:30,800
where those charges coming from there's

1023
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:33,200
an assumption which is that oh it's just

1024
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:35,040
depolarizing neurons it's an action

1025
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:36,240
potential going down this you know

1026
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:38,000
there's a network of all these neurons

1027
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:38,960
all

1028
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:40,960
doing their thing hundreds of cells

1029
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:43,119
maybe thousands of cells all firing

1030
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:44,879
simultaneously or in a circuit order but

1031
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:46,560
that's what we're picking up on

1032
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:48,639
but do we actually know that i don't

1033
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:50,800
think we do the the fields are quite

1034
00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:53,760
weak on the on the membrane itself but

1035
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:55,119
inside the cells we've got all these

1036
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:57,200
mitochondria with stacked christie

1037
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,119
generating what ought to be quite

1038
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:01,440
powerful fields um

1039
00:35:06,310 --> 00:35:03,440
which should interact with the fields on

1040
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:06,320
the membranes as well directly and and

1041
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:07,920
interfere with whether or not they're

1042
00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:11,119
sending a signal or not um and this is a

1043
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:12,960
whole area of biology that you know the

1044
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:14,560
moment is hand waving we don't know if

1045
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:16,160
any of this is true and it makes a very

1046
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,520
specific prediction about the

1047
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:19,520
orientation of membranes if they're all

1048
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:21,040
offset to each other then the fields

1049
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,240
would interfere with each other and it

1050
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:24,079
would never work so you know there's

1051
00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:26,240
quite specific requirements for this to

1052
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:27,280
work

1053
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,589
it's

1054
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:33,599
it does seem to be oriented that way it

1055
00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:35,280
does seem to work that way and then then

1056
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:36,480
you end up with really interesting

1057
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:39,119
questions to me which is well

1058
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:40,079
why

1059
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:46,160
networks

1060
00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:48,320
and the reason for me there

1061
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:50,480
goes goes back

1062
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:52,320
actually i wrote a book 10 years ago 12

1063
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:53,599
years ago called life ascending and

1064
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,640
there's a chapter in there on

1065
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:56,720
consciousness where i failed to answer

1066
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,240
the question at all to my own

1067
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:00,640
satisfaction at least well everyone does

1068
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:02,400
you're uncomfortable comfortable uh well

1069
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:03,440
i i

1070
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:05,760
i was left with with two uncomfortable

1071
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:07,599
conclusions one of them was that and

1072
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:08,960
this i was really only reporting on what

1073
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:11,520
other people said um one of them is that

1074
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,599
it's property of physics it's a property

1075
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:15,359
of matter it's an unknown

1076
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,599
uh unknown property of matter and when

1077
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,960
we know a bit more physics then we'll

1078
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:20,400
understand what consciousness is and so

1079
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:22,720
the sun is conscious in some

1080
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:25,359
way or another it's pan psychism and

1081
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,200
it's got a you know people like roger

1082
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,760
penrose and and and hammer off and so on

1083
00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:31,839
have been arguing along these lines

1084
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:34,400
uh for for for a long time

1085
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:36,000
um

1086
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:37,359
i find it

1087
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:38,880
uncomfortable

1088
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:41,040
um i don't really believe that the sun

1089
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:42,880
or the moon is consciousness conscious

1090
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:45,200
in a meaningful way i tend to think of

1091
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:47,280
it as a well basically a property of a

1092
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:49,280
nervous system

1093
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:50,240
um

1094
00:36:53,589 --> 00:36:51,760
so but but if you think of it just as a

1095
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,599
property of a nervous system

1096
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:55,839
then then it comes down from from my

1097
00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:57,839
point of view as a biochemist you've got

1098
00:37:01,510 --> 00:37:00,079
a depolarizing neuron you've got you

1099
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:01,520
you've got you've got sodium ions

1100
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:02,720
rushing in

1101
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:06,480
um potassium ions you know your ions are

1102
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,520
changing around um and that gives rise

1103
00:37:13,349 --> 00:37:11,200
to a feeling

1104
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:13,359
and if what's the feeling in physical

1105
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:15,680
terms if it's not a property of matter

1106
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:17,760
what actually is it more you know is it

1107
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:19,040
simply

1108
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:20,560
in that sense an illusion that's

1109
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:22,960
concocted by a central nervous system

1110
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:25,520
and i find that very unsatisfying as an

1111
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:26,960
answer as well

1112
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:29,839
and it also kind of says that

1113
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:31,359
it's a property of central nervous

1114
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:34,000
systems so what did selection act on and

1115
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:35,520
this is where michael levin's ideas are

1116
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:37,280
really important because he's saying

1117
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:39,599
that no is much wider than that all

1118
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,079
cells have these fields all cells are

1119
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:44,560
communicating electrically it goes right

1120
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:47,280
back to not just the earliest

1121
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:49,839
animals but probably back to single

1122
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:52,079
uh critters as well

1123
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:54,560
and then when you start thinking about

1124
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,160
well the charges in mitochondria are

1125
00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:58,320
inside cells well mitochondria were

1126
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:01,040
bacteria once they were free living once

1127
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:02,480
and so the charges that they have on

1128
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:04,880
their membranes

1129
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,040
is separating the inside of the

1130
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,680
bacterial cell from the outside world

1131
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:12,000
and so it has much more meaning you can

1132
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:13,520
see you can understand why selection

1133
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,520
would act on that it's effectively

1134
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:17,040
telling you how am i doing in the world

1135
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,520
right now am i am i about to die am i is

1136
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:21,440
something gone wrong is you know it's a

1137
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:23,040
real selective value that this is kind

1138
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:24,320
of giving you an

1139
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,640
integrated real-time feedback on your

1140
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:28,320
state in the world as an electrical

1141
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,800
field as integrates the whole cell

1142
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:32,480
and when you start thinking in those

1143
00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:33,599
terms

1144
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:36,320
and you start realizing that well

1145
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:38,720
driving this reaction between co2 and

1146
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:40,720
hydrogen at the origin of life requires

1147
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:42,160
an electric

1148
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:47,280
um and so electrically charged membranes

1149
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:48,800
go right back to the beginning and it's

1150
00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:51,040
the only way really of integrating the

1151
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:53,119
cell as an entity in relation to its

1152
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:54,720
environment then there's a beautiful

1153
00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:56,800
idea there i'm not really saying that

1154
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:59,119
bacteria are conscious in a meaningful

1155
00:39:02,069 --> 00:39:00,800
way it's just that

1156
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,079
there are

1157
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,480
kind of integrated states of their state

1158
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:06,720
of being in the world either they're

1159
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,560
doing well or they're stressed you know

1160
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:10,079
that kind of level of

1161
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:11,200
um

1162
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,440
of feedback

1163
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:15,839
it it it's calibrated by a field and

1164
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,920
those fields are used during development

1165
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,760
to say okay now you've grown enough now

1166
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,359
stop now you're in a high or whatever it

1167
00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:23,119
may be and this is a whole language of

1168
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:25,280
how fields are communicating in biology

1169
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:27,280
which we've barely

1170
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:29,920
touched the tip of the iceberg

1171
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,079
okay let me see if i got the stream

1172
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:34,079
so earlier we you mentioned that there's

1173
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,760
an axon you can cut it and then you can

1174
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,760
separate it such that

1175
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:39,200
chemicals shouldn't be able to be

1176
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:40,560
interchanged between here like

1177
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,800
neurotransmitters too slow for that yes

1178
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:44,240
so it'll just hop over as if there was

1179
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:45,280
no gap

1180
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:46,640
however there's still a signal that

1181
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:49,520
signals called an action potential yep

1182
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,320
okay

1183
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:52,800
and one of the reasons you think or

1184
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:55,119
people think mitochondria are important

1185
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:57,040
are because you use this word christy

1186
00:40:01,750 --> 00:39:59,839
which i believe refers to the these are

1187
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:01,760
the membranes inside

1188
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,359
yes exactly

1189
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,680
okay and the reason why these folds are

1190
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:07,680
important is because they have plenty of

1191
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,280
surface area even though they're small

1192
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:13,520
yes they they have a lot of surface area

1193
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,200
but they also have a structure and an

1194
00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:17,359
orientation they're lined up in parallel

1195
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:18,720
very often

1196
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:20,640
and and they they have a very high

1197
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,599
charge

1198
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:23,200
and ironically

1199
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:24,480
it's very difficult to measure that

1200
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,440
charge

1201
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:27,680
um why because

1202
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:29,520
because if you're measuring the charge

1203
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:31,040
in a neuron

1204
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:33,200
you can you can insert a microelectrode

1205
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:35,040
into a neuron and it was all originally

1206
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:37,680
it was all done uh with giant neurons in

1207
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:40,160
squids and things like that um

1208
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,920
but but still you can insert an

1209
00:40:46,310 --> 00:40:43,520
electrode into a neuron but remember a

1210
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,320
mitochondrion is a small part of a cell

1211
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,800
so it's much smaller than a neuron

1212
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:49,760
um

1213
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:50,880
and

1214
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:54,000
inserted microelectrodes into

1215
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:55,440
mitochondria

1216
00:40:59,670 --> 00:40:56,960
and the irony is they've never really

1217
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:59,680
measured much of a potential difference

1218
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:01,119
and the reason for that is almost

1219
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,720
certainly that what they they've just

1220
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:04,560
inserted it into what's called a matrix

1221
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:06,319
which is the main kind of bulk space

1222
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:08,079
inside the mitochondrion and so they're

1223
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:09,359
measuring a difference between that and

1224
00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:10,720
the rest of the cell

1225
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:12,560
and it's not much but then you've got

1226
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:14,480
these structures that christie which are

1227
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:16,640
very tight membranes which is basically

1228
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:19,119
impossible to poke a needle into

1229
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:21,359
and that's where all the charges so to

1230
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:22,960
try and measure that charge is a really

1231
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:24,560
difficult thing to do

1232
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:26,960
uh and people are getting closer to it

1233
00:41:30,950 --> 00:41:29,040
now there's some really clever ingenious

1234
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:30,960
ways of trying to measure what exactly

1235
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:33,680
is the charge in this closed space

1236
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:35,920
really narrow closed space

1237
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:36,880
um

1238
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,960
but it you know it's it's it's a very

1239
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,800
difficult technical problem you can cut

1240
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:42,480
you can basically calculate it you can

1241
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:44,000
show it with dyes but you never really

1242
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,520
know what the dyes are interacting with

1243
00:41:49,829 --> 00:41:47,440
otherwise so it's it's intrinsically

1244
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,839
difficult uh okay do you imagine that

1245
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,520
this is a technological problem that

1246
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,599
will be solved in the near future i hope

1247
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:55,359
or there's some in principle reason why

1248
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,720
it can't be done

1249
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:59,040
uh no i think um i i mean it's just

1250
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,480
difficult but i think we can do it i

1251
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:02,800
mean i intend to give it my own best

1252
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:04,240
shot but there's a few other people

1253
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:07,040
thinking along these lines as well

1254
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,359
now the fact that mitochondria may be

1255
00:42:13,589 --> 00:42:11,200
important for consciousness does that

1256
00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:13,599
imply that the bacteria which don't have

1257
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:15,520
mitochondria are not conscious or at a

1258
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:17,520
much lower level of consciousness than

1259
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:19,040
protozoa

1260
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,640
um and you know you can see videos of

1261
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:26,400
the way that they behave and they're

1262
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:29,119
astonishing i mean you know watch videos

1263
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:30,560
of protozoa the way that they move

1264
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,560
around and they they go fishing they do

1265
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:34,240
all kinds

1266
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:35,680
the control of their behavior is

1267
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:37,839
exquisite um

1268
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:39,280
it's the kind of thing that

1269
00:42:42,829 --> 00:42:40,800
you know should make people believe in

1270
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,839
god it's just so beautiful

1271
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:44,800
um so

1272
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:46,720
it's not a matter of genes being

1273
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:48,240
expressed there's something controlling

1274
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:49,680
this system

1275
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:51,119
uh which is

1276
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:52,160
which is

1277
00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:54,480
happening in in nanoseconds is you know

1278
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,319
it's happening extremely quickly and

1279
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:58,400
it's it's the whole cell which is doing

1280
00:43:01,430 --> 00:43:00,240
this it's not just one bit of the cell

1281
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:01,440
it's not you know

1282
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:03,280
imagine you're a molecule

1283
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,640
finish the book this way imagine that

1284
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:06,000
you're a molly shrink yourself down to

1285
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:07,599
the size of a molecule a cell is like a

1286
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,560
city

1287
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,160
um

1288
00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:12,720
where i am now i'm in london and

1289
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:16,400
20 15 20 miles away uh through to canary

1290
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:17,839
wharf or greenwich or somewhere like

1291
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,599
that um

1292
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,359
there would be other molecules you know

1293
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,280
the people over there would be like me

1294
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,200
as a molecule as a pyruvate molecule

1295
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:27,359
inside a cell or something so what is it

1296
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:29,119
that unites me

1297
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:30,240
with this

1298
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:31,200
person

1299
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,880
20 miles away

1300
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:34,880
in a cell and and the answer is well you

1301
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:36,960
know

1302
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,200
in the city not much some kind of shared

1303
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:40,960
sense of identity as a londoner or

1304
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,640
something but you know you know you you

1305
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:43,839
know that you're living in a city but

1306
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:45,920
that's conscious awareness but in a cell

1307
00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:48,240
while we're dealing with molecules

1308
00:43:52,829 --> 00:43:51,440
how does something happening over here

1309
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:52,839
happen over there

1310
00:43:57,750 --> 00:43:54,319
simultaneously essentially

1311
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:57,760
simultaneously effectively 20 miles away

1312
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,160
so that we're integrated in in real time

1313
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:02,640
and doing the same thing

1314
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:03,599
now

1315
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:05,920
fields can do that for sure so how would

1316
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:07,440
you have a field that operates on the

1317
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:08,880
whole cell if it's on the membrane that

1318
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:10,640
surrounds the cell

1319
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:12,400
and if what that membrane is reporting

1320
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:13,920
on is how are you doing in relation to

1321
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:15,119
the environment because if you you know

1322
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:16,960
if you're if you're taking up food from

1323
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:19,440
the environment and burning it and using

1324
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:21,040
the energy to generate an electrical

1325
00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:22,160
charge on the membrane and there's

1326
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:23,839
plenty of food you've got a nice charge

1327
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:25,200
everything's good

1328
00:44:28,470 --> 00:44:26,160
um

1329
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,480
so it's it's telling you that the the

1330
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:30,319
whole cell has got a nice electrical

1331
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:31,760
charge on the membrane there's a nice

1332
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:33,760
field crossing the cell

1333
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:35,440
oscillation so

1334
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:37,200
water molecules within the cell are kind

1335
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:40,319
of locking things in some kind of phase

1336
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:41,520
and

1337
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:45,440
that is telling you about your state if

1338
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:47,280
you move into an area where there's

1339
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:48,480
toxins

1340
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:50,240
or where there's no food or whatever it

1341
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,680
may be then

1342
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:53,280
then you're you're you know they're

1343
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:54,720
going to interfere

1344
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:57,200
with how this charge works it's going to

1345
00:45:01,829 --> 00:45:00,000
change the field and and you're going to

1346
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,839
shift you're going to change what you do

1347
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:03,040
you're going to move over there you're

1348
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:05,520
going to set your your

1349
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:08,640
your flagellum whirring or something

1350
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:10,160
you you'll change your behavior but you

1351
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:13,200
do it at the level of a whole cell

1352
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:14,800
and what's integrating at the level of

1353
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:18,079
the cell in my view now is is the the

1354
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,680
charge on the membrane generating a

1355
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:21,680
field which is integrating all the

1356
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:24,160
component molecules in the cell to act

1357
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:24,960
as a

1358
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:29,440
here's one question if we have one cell

1359
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:31,440
and it's we imagine that it may have

1360
00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:33,599
some proto form of consciousness because

1361
00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:35,520
it's interacting with the outside okay

1362
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:36,640
and then if we have two and they're

1363
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:39,119
interacting with one another then we

1364
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,240
have a consciousness that is of the two

1365
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:44,160
as a whole

1366
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,200
um not necessarily uh if they're in if

1367
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,440
they're locked in phase in some way as

1368
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:51,599
they may be if with two neurons locked

1369
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:54,319
in phase in a multicellular organism

1370
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,240
um then yes they could be but if they're

1371
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,960
not in phase then then they

1372
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:00,960
would interfere with each other in some

1373
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:02,560
way there's actually lots of evidence

1374
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,160
that for example

1375
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:06,800
um pollinating insects when they arrive

1376
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,280
on a flower can sense electrically

1377
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:11,200
whether or not it's already

1378
00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:12,400
whether the nectar is already being

1379
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,720
taken so they don't bother to go there

1380
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,480
you know there's an interference that i

1381
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,079
don't know very much about

1382
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:19,839
um but

1383
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:21,359
you know there's quite a lot of evidence

1384
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:23,760
that the animals have fields that are

1385
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:25,280
capable of interacting with each other

1386
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:27,040
we just don't know a huge amount about

1387
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,040
it and the idea that cells would do the

1388
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:31,359
same thing i mean you can see it under

1389
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:32,640
the microscope we don't know exactly

1390
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,560
what's going on i don't think we've ever

1391
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,680
measured it

1392
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:37,680
but i'm fairly

1393
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:39,680
fairly persuaded that fields would be

1394
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:41,440
one of the most powerful ways of trying

1395
00:46:45,349 --> 00:46:43,440
to explain the interactions you see

1396
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:45,359
between single cells yes

1397
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:47,359
now this locked in phase quality i

1398
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:48,720
imagine is also

1399
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:51,520
a spectrum and not zero to not binary or

1400
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:53,839
is it i know well

1401
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:55,599
you tell me you're the physicist i mean

1402
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:57,200
i i would imagine that there's something

1403
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:59,200
of a spectrum but but there's some

1404
00:47:01,910 --> 00:47:00,400
element in which once you get

1405
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:01,920
interference then you don't have you

1406
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,880
would not have any locked in place

1407
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,400
what i'm thinking is that

1408
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:08,480
i'm imagining the brain akin to those

1409
00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:09,839
vertices of there's points there's

1410
00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:11,359
vertices and then there's edges between

1411
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,599
them and then there's a slew of them and

1412
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:14,720
then they're interacting with one

1413
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:17,599
another and that any subset of these

1414
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:19,920
not any subset but there will be

1415
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:22,319
manifold subsets so plenty not manifold

1416
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:24,319
in the math sense but man many many

1417
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:26,720
subsets that will be in phase with one

1418
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:29,200
another any given point in time and so

1419
00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:30,880
any individual

1420
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:32,720
comprises

1421
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,960
perhaps more conscious

1422
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:36,480
subsets than there are atoms in the

1423
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:38,640
universe if you do some analysis of how

1424
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:40,480
many subsets and so on that is to say

1425
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,200
that nick is not just one consciousness

1426
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,440
it would be trillions if or 10 to the

1427
00:47:48,550 --> 00:47:46,800
trillions

1428
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,560
well but i don't know so because i don't

1429
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:50,160
know what counts as consciousness here

1430
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:52,240
yeah i mean i'm not i'm not a

1431
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:53,920
neurologist and i'm not working on

1432
00:47:57,030 --> 00:47:55,920
consciousness as we know it in human

1433
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:57,040
brains

1434
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:57,839
um

1435
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:59,520
what bothered me

1436
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:00,960
um

1437
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:02,640
you know it's a question in philosophy

1438
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:06,400
as well is is is is if you've got an and

1439
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:08,640
it touches on ai and whatever else if

1440
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:11,200
you've got an extremely sophisticated

1441
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:12,960
processing system

1442
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:14,000
um

1443
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:15,440
and the brain is an extremely

1444
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:18,720
sophisticated processing system uh

1445
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:20,800
does it need to be conscious is there

1446
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:23,040
some kind of emergence

1447
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:26,640
and if so what governs that emergence

1448
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:29,359
um and it may be that that is the case

1449
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,160
but

1450
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:33,040
i'm i i find emergence one of those

1451
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:35,599
words which is overused it has a real

1452
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:37,359
meaning but it's very easy to say oh

1453
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,800
it's an emergent property and you know

1454
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:40,720
it's basically it says i have no clue

1455
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:42,640
what i'm talking about it's just a nice

1456
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:44,319
word um

1457
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:45,119
so

1458
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:48,960
i i can imagine

1459
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,359
the classical philosopher's zombie which

1460
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:54,160
is capable of behaving in a perfectly

1461
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:56,960
normal human way without experiencing

1462
00:49:01,990 --> 00:48:58,800
any emotions or any feelings or anything

1463
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:02,000
else and i can imagine robots and an ai

1464
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:05,440
uh being like that as well capable of

1465
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,760
being enormously intelligent and and

1466
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:09,839
having you know conversations that would

1467
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:12,800
persuade us that they are human um but

1468
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,400
without feeling anything um

1469
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,319
and so i'm background to this question

1470
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:20,319
of well what is a feeling is it real is

1471
00:49:23,990 --> 00:49:22,079
it a is it a concoction of a central

1472
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:24,000
nervous system an emergent property what

1473
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:25,440
actually is it

1474
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,440
and to my mind

1475
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,520
um

1476
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,440
natural selection always works on

1477
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:33,359
something else there are simpler systems

1478
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:36,079
so you know it it

1479
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:39,040
so i'm perfectly happy to believe that a

1480
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,720
dog for example

1481
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:42,559
is not necessarily

1482
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,800
that intelligent i don't know but i i i

1483
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:46,880
would think it's consciously aware

1484
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:49,440
and and and capable of feelings capable

1485
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:52,400
of emotions and the idea that a dog will

1486
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:54,960
pine after its masters died or whatever

1487
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,559
is you know it's very familiar to most

1488
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,400
people and and it seems

1489
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,839
obvious to me

1490
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:01,760
um that that would be the case and from

1491
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,280
a biologist point of view why would it

1492
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:05,119
not be the case selection has to act on

1493
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,720
something why would one central nervous

1494
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,240
system be utterly different to another

1495
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:10,880
one there's a matter of it's a continuum

1496
00:50:14,950 --> 00:50:12,559
again we have a really

1497
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:14,960
high power processing system but our

1498
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,920
feelings our emotions

1499
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:19,920
you know i i think we probably share

1500
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:21,599
them with a lot of other creatures and

1501
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,400
it's very easy to imagine that the the

1502
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,640
you know chimpanzee can be in love or

1503
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:29,119
can feel pain or or any of these

1504
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:30,480
feelings

1505
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,760
they feel

1506
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,079
animalistic to me

1507
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:36,319
and we can nuance them with with all

1508
00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,870
intelligence and thoughts and language

1509
00:50:44,549 --> 00:50:42,480
and whatever else but the you know a

1510
00:50:46,630 --> 00:50:44,559
feeling of of malignant sadness

1511
00:50:49,349 --> 00:50:46,640
underneath everything else is it's it's

1512
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:49,359
it's not something which is

1513
00:50:53,829 --> 00:50:52,559
you that you have much control over

1514
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,839
or a feeling of just being

1515
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,599
overwhelmingly in love with someone what

1516
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,599
what what can you do you know we have no

1517
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,280
control over these these feelings

1518
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:02,160
they're they're very

1519
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:04,319
separate almost from from a parallel

1520
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:05,680
processing system they can be

1521
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,400
overwhelming um and so

1522
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:10,480
so what what what are they and this is

1523
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:12,079
where i think this language of feels and

1524
00:51:17,190 --> 00:51:14,319
so on comes in and i'm not saying that a

1525
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:17,200
bacterium is conscious in a way that any

1526
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:18,720
of us would recognize i'm just saying

1527
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:21,280
it's the germ of a kind of a

1528
00:51:25,109 --> 00:51:22,720
something which tells you about your

1529
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,119
state and which is not just it's more

1530
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,880
than the sum of all of these parts it's

1531
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,640
something which gives you an integrated

1532
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:30,000
feedback on

1533
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:32,319
am i am i effectively sad or happy you

1534
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:35,040
might say i'm am i content in this

1535
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:37,040
environment or am i stressed in this

1536
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:38,400
environment that's the nature of a

1537
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:46,790
okay so to be clear you're not claiming

1538
00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:49,200
that this solves the heart problem of

1539
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,559
consciousness but rather if

1540
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,319
consciousness was to have some physical

1541
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:54,480
explanation perhaps we should look at

1542
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,079
the what's occurring at the cell

1543
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:58,319
membrane electrically

1544
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:00,640
uh well the the membranes inside in the

1545
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,800
mitochondria and so on yes i think

1546
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:04,559
that's the language i think that

1547
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:06,800
provides a selective basis for how it

1548
00:52:09,990 --> 00:52:07,920
began

1549
00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:10,000
i think it's it you know this question

1550
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,160
about what purpose is consciousness in

1551
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:14,160
in in natural selection

1552
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:15,680
if you think about it at the level of

1553
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:18,480
single cells if you think that it's

1554
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:20,000
giving you this real time integrated

1555
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:22,319
feedback on your state in the world

1556
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,079
and whether or not you make a decision

1557
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:26,640
as a cell to go over there or to stay

1558
00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:29,200
here or to depolarize your membrane and

1559
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:30,640
kill yourself immediately if you've been

1560
00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:32,559
infected by a virus or all of these kind

1561
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:36,079
of decisions that you take as an entity

1562
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:38,880
um this is providing you with a kind of

1563
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:40,800
language for the entity

1564
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:42,800
and it you immediately see what

1565
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:44,480
selection is acting on and the hard

1566
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,559
problem in consciousness is

1567
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:48,800
to a large extent about what what our

1568
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:51,280
feelings what our emotions in in in

1569
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:52,960
physical terms

1570
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:54,960
uh and and that's

1571
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:56,319
you know people have been talking about

1572
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,720
electrical fields for quite a long time

1573
00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,480
in that sense as well this is again

1574
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,800
nothing particularly new but but why

1575
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:04,319
that language

1576
00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:07,040
why why would electrical fields give you

1577
00:53:11,270 --> 00:53:09,119
some kind of feeling of being conscious

1578
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:11,280
when you take it out of the environment

1579
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,000
of a nervous system and put it into the

1580
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:16,319
environment of single cells and this

1581
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:18,079
real-time feedback

1582
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:19,520
on their environment their state in

1583
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:21,599
their environment then you you see it's

1584
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:23,119
the only language which is going to

1585
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:24,640
integrate you as a unit which is going

1586
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:25,520
to tell

1587
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:27,760
tell the other half of the cell 20 miles

1588
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:30,880
away over there that that uh

1589
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,839
is that it's an er you know your action

1590
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:36,160
is for the whole cell

1591
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,400
and so when you put two cells together

1592
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,480
and and you build multicellular

1593
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:42,640
organisms you're using these fields to

1594
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,040
control the development of the organisms

1595
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:47,520
as as michael levin says and then as you

1596
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:49,359
end up with a central nervous system

1597
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:52,000
it's channeling more of that energy into

1598
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:53,839
circuits and you know

1599
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:55,520
whatever the explanation is it has to

1600
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:57,280
correspond to what we already know about

1601
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,880
neurology about the way that neural

1602
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,880
networks actually work and the problem i

1603
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:02,319
have for example with

1604
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:03,520
with um

1605
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:05,680
with penrose and hammer off and the idea

1606
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:07,359
that it's it's all

1607
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:10,880
uh to do with um with microtubules for

1608
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:12,960
example is that it's not

1609
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,359
very obvious

1610
00:54:20,549 --> 00:54:17,760
how they correspond to at least it's not

1611
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:20,559
to me how they correspond to what we

1612
00:54:23,910 --> 00:54:22,480
already know about neurology about

1613
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:23,920
neural networks and so on whereas

1614
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:25,680
mitochondria are completely integrated

1615
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:26,720
into that

1616
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:28,640
um they're part of the neurons they're

1617
00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:29,760
part of

1618
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,559
uh the depolarization of neurons they

1619
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:34,160
can interfere with this electric

1620
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:36,720
electrically and so on so they're

1621
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:38,559
they're they're linked in

1622
00:54:42,549 --> 00:54:40,960
with the structure i think of the

1623
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:42,559
neurons in a different in a different

1624
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:43,839
way

1625
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:46,640
the reason though that i

1626
00:54:50,829 --> 00:54:49,200
came back to this and and started taking

1627
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:50,839
it seriously

1628
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,599
um and you know lots of people seem to

1629
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,960
think that i'm barking up the wrong tree

1630
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,400
altogether and should never talk about

1631
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:58,640
neurology again or consciousness again

1632
00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:01,599
um but the the the reason is is is an

1633
00:55:05,109 --> 00:55:03,440
interaction with a biophysicist called

1634
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:05,119
luca turin

1635
00:55:08,309 --> 00:55:06,880
and and he came to see me a few years

1636
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,319
ago and

1637
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:10,640
was talking about anesthetics general

1638
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:12,720
anesthetics we don't really know how

1639
00:55:16,069 --> 00:55:14,240
they work

1640
00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:16,079
um and

1641
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,119
and and he he was interested in xenon in

1642
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:21,359
particular which is an inert gas

1643
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:22,400
and

1644
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:23,920
that it doesn't really have a shape it's

1645
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:25,920
a sphere of electron density so it's not

1646
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:27,520
obviously going to interact with any

1647
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:29,040
type of receptor

1648
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:30,160
and all the different general

1649
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:31,839
anaesthetics they have different shapes

1650
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:33,359
and different different chemical

1651
00:55:36,549 --> 00:55:34,800
properties and it's not obvious that

1652
00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:36,559
there's any kind of

1653
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:38,720
type of receptor that would deal with

1654
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:40,000
them all

1655
00:55:43,270 --> 00:55:41,760
and and it doesn't really have any

1656
00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:43,280
chemistry but it can

1657
00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:48,079
uh transfer electrons and so it can

1658
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:49,359
interfere

1659
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:51,599
with electron transfer and what luca

1660
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:53,280
turin had shown which really made me

1661
00:55:57,910 --> 00:55:56,000
excited is is is that

1662
00:55:59,589 --> 00:55:57,920
they do interfere with the transfer of

1663
00:56:01,589 --> 00:55:59,599
electrons to oxygen

1664
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:01,599
in respiration now that doesn't prove

1665
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:04,319
it's causal that just shows that

1666
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:05,680
anesthetics

1667
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:08,000
interfere in some way with respiration

1668
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:10,160
and maybe if they simply suppress what

1669
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:11,599
the rest of the cell is doing that would

1670
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:13,280
have a knock-on effect on respiration

1671
00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:14,400
you could you could say that that would

1672
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:15,440
be the case

1673
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:17,520
but they he didn't find anything else

1674
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:18,240
that

1675
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:19,839
a general anaesthetic was having an

1676
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:21,280
effect on

1677
00:56:24,309 --> 00:56:22,960
and so if you put it together with what

1678
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:24,319
i was saying about

1679
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:26,000
the requirement for cells and the

1680
00:56:29,190 --> 00:56:27,920
electrical charge on the membranes to

1681
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:29,200
integrate

1682
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:31,520
their state in the environment

1683
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:32,880
then suddenly

1684
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:35,680
it it's a rather thrilling idea

1685
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,480
um

1686
00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:38,079
doug wallace is another person who's

1687
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:39,839
been working on these fields in

1688
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:42,799
mitochondria for some time now uh and

1689
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:45,119
and again is

1690
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,799
he's out there on a limb as far as

1691
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:48,480
biology is concerned he's he's one of

1692
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:50,799
the few people who's willing to

1693
00:56:55,750 --> 00:56:52,640
to talk about parallel christie

1694
00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:55,760
generating strong electromagnetic fields

1695
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:57,280
that are reinforcing each other and

1696
00:57:01,670 --> 00:56:58,880
communicating

1697
00:57:03,430 --> 00:57:01,680
across distances this is not

1698
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:03,440
this is not the language that biology is

1699
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:06,079
used to and and you know doug wallace is

1700
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:09,119
is very distinguished and so people will

1701
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,000
kind of

1702
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:12,160
tolerate him uh towards the end of his

1703
00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:14,720
career talking about these things

1704
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:17,440
luca turin is is uh

1705
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:19,440
i won't say he's an outcast but he you

1706
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,400
know he's he's on the edge of

1707
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:24,319
scientific respectability and he's not

1708
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:25,920
because he's not a good he's a brilliant

1709
00:57:30,309 --> 00:57:28,319
scientist it's just that he's saying

1710
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:30,319
things that people in biology don't want

1711
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,920
to hear

1712
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:33,599
interesting

1713
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:36,400
turin has found that xenon interrupts or

1714
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:38,720
interferes with respiration and when you

1715
00:57:41,829 --> 00:57:40,160
say respiration you mean cellular

1716
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:41,839
respiration with the transfer of

1717
00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:44,000
electrons yes which is to say this is

1718
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,400
what's going on in mitochondria the the

1719
00:57:51,510 --> 00:57:48,480
so you basically have a the current of

1720
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,520
electrons going from food to oxygen

1721
00:57:56,069 --> 00:57:53,119
um and

1722
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:56,079
and gases like xenon interfere with that

1723
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,280
uh that that uh current of electrons and

1724
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:01,680
that means that it makes respiration

1725
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:03,440
less likely to occur and by the way what

1726
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:05,200
is cellular respiration i assume you've

1727
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:07,520
taken oxygen but um i don't know if that

1728
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,440
analogy between my respiration yeah yeah

1729
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,440
i mean basically you're yes no it's

1730
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:13,040
exactly right i mean you're we're

1731
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:15,440
stripping electrons from food

1732
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:17,040
by the krebs cycle that's what the krebs

1733
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:18,960
cycle is doing is taking electrons from

1734
00:58:23,109 --> 00:58:21,760
food it's feeding them into the membrane

1735
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:23,119
and then we have a current of electrons

1736
00:58:27,829 --> 00:58:24,960
in the membrane going to oxygen oxygen

1737
00:58:29,589 --> 00:58:27,839
picks up two electrons and two protons

1738
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:29,599
um and and

1739
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:30,480
and

1740
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:31,440
it

1741
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:36,640
and and that and so so basically we

1742
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,799
we're reacting hydrogen

1743
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:40,720
the electrons and the protons we're

1744
00:58:44,710 --> 00:58:42,640
taking we're taking hydrogen from food

1745
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:44,720
we're reacting with oxygen but we're not

1746
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:46,799
doing it in one step that's rocket fuel

1747
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:48,000
you know that's what's that's what's

1748
00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:51,280
powering a rocket um

1749
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:52,799
we've basically got a current from one

1750
00:58:56,230 --> 00:58:54,799
to the other and that that current is

1751
00:58:58,230 --> 00:58:56,240
powering

1752
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:58,240
the extrusion of protons across the

1753
00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,760
membrane and that's what's putting the

1754
00:59:03,030 --> 00:59:01,839
electrical charge on the membrane so now

1755
00:59:04,789 --> 00:59:03,040
we have an electrical charge on the

1756
00:59:06,309 --> 00:59:04,799
membrane and the orientation of these

1757
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:06,319
christie structures

1758
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:07,839
it means that this is a current of

1759
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:10,240
protons it's an oscillating current of

1760
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,920
protons and that's what's generating the

1761
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,920
field is there a radio wave associated

1762
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,359
with this

1763
00:59:19,109 --> 00:59:18,000
with turin found that somehow

1764
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:19,119
okay

1765
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:21,119
there there is yes

1766
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:23,280
um i don't i have to say i don't quite

1767
00:59:26,789 --> 00:59:24,960
understand that please explain the

1768
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:26,799
significance of this

1769
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,240
um

1770
00:59:33,589 --> 00:59:30,400
well there's a funny story that he tells

1771
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:33,599
about that um because the guy who uh i

1772
00:59:37,510 --> 00:59:34,880
forget his name now the guy who

1773
00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:37,520
discovered the eeg in the first place

1774
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:39,359
the electro encephalogram michael cohen

1775
00:59:43,349 --> 00:59:41,440
or no no that's different no no this

1776
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:43,359
goes back much before this goes i just

1777
00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:45,040
have different snippets of this book in

1778
00:59:49,270 --> 00:59:46,960
my head i remember michael cohen said

1779
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:49,280
something like no one understands but he

1780
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:50,799
no we're going we're going back 100

1781
00:59:55,349 --> 00:59:53,200
years or more uh to the to the discovery

1782
00:59:56,470 --> 00:59:55,359
that the brain is generating electrical

1783
00:59:58,470 --> 00:59:56,480
signals it can be detected with

1784
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:58,480
electrodes on the scalp he was actually

1785
01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:00,559
looking for radio waves

1786
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:02,400
he was looking for long distance

1787
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:05,599
communications between people i think he

1788
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:06,640
had

1789
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:07,680
um

1790
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:10,000
he'd had some premonition that terrible

1791
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:11,920
accident had befallen his sister or

1792
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:14,559
something and i i it turned out you know

1793
01:00:17,829 --> 01:00:16,079
lots of people have these premonitions

1794
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:17,839
that something terrible has happened to

1795
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:18,880
a friend

1796
01:00:21,990 --> 01:00:20,400
i have them as well and every time i

1797
01:00:23,990 --> 01:00:22,000
have them it never turns out to be true

1798
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:24,000
but you know for some people it's it's

1799
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:24,880
true

1800
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,240
never looked exactly

1801
01:00:36,069 --> 01:00:34,319
um but but

1802
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,079
that's what he was interested in that's

1803
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:38,160
what he was looking for communication by

1804
01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:40,079
radio waves between people at a distance

1805
01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:43,200
of maybe hundreds of miles um and he

1806
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:45,440
discovered the eeg instead

1807
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:49,040
um and and it's ironic because

1808
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:51,200
the key

1809
01:00:55,190 --> 01:00:52,799
we're on your ground again here more

1810
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:55,200
more than my ground but um there's

1811
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:57,440
there's a there's a an israeli scientist

1812
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,040
who's shown that

1813
01:01:03,990 --> 01:01:01,280
electrons spin

1814
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:04,000
if it's passing through a chiral medium

1815
01:01:11,109 --> 01:01:08,400
um ends up in in in the same spin state

1816
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:11,119
so it's been polarized um

1817
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,119
and a chiral medium includes proteins

1818
01:01:17,910 --> 01:01:15,040
because proteins are made of amino acids

1819
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:17,920
and amino acids are always in the in in

1820
01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:19,680
in the left-handed form

1821
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:20,720
um

1822
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:24,480
and and so all the the the the current

1823
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:26,480
of electrons that flows from hydrogen to

1824
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:28,559
oxygen goes through proteins in this

1825
01:01:32,950 --> 01:01:31,359
membrane and those proteins are chiral

1826
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:32,960
and that means that the

1827
01:01:36,870 --> 01:01:35,200
um the the the electrons that are

1828
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:36,880
transferred are actually locked in the

1829
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:38,880
same spin state

1830
01:01:43,829 --> 01:01:42,000
and and when you lose that spin state

1831
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:43,839
that emits a radio signal and that's

1832
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:46,880
what luca turin has detected

1833
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:48,240
you mentioned something interesting

1834
01:01:52,150 --> 01:01:50,079
which is that there's apparently a

1835
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:52,160
psychic phenomenon unverified or maybe

1836
01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:53,760
it has been but we don't know as far as

1837
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:55,280
i know it's unverified well people

1838
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,480
believe they can communicate to one

1839
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:58,480
another one of the reasons why on

1840
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:00,160
theories of everything i don't mind

1841
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:02,400
talking to some people who believe

1842
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:03,680
they've done studies and they're

1843
01:02:07,030 --> 01:02:05,280
excluded from academia for whatever

1844
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,040
reason i want to find out the validity

1845
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:08,880
of those because i think that there may

1846
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:11,119
be something to with certain

1847
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:12,799
aspects of what people consider to be

1848
01:02:17,270 --> 01:02:15,200
paranormal that their explanation for

1849
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:17,280
why it works may be incorrect there may

1850
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:19,200
be some physical basis like it's that we

1851
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:21,280
we're obviously communicating right now

1852
01:02:24,549 --> 01:02:23,280
we don't think that there's any psychic

1853
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:24,559
abilities involved because we're just

1854
01:02:27,990 --> 01:02:26,400
going through the computer but perhaps

1855
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:28,000
something similar where radio waves are

1856
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:29,599
being transmitted and if it's of a

1857
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:31,920
strong enough distress then perhaps the

1858
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:34,480
person feels it i think that science is

1859
01:02:38,549 --> 01:02:37,200
intrinsically very conservative

1860
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:38,559
and there was a lovely phrase from peter

1861
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:40,000
meadow who said science is the art of

1862
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:42,240
the soluble which is to say

1863
01:02:46,230 --> 01:02:44,480
problems that we can actually solve

1864
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:46,240
so problems that we can't solve because

1865
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:47,839
we don't know how to go about it we tend

1866
01:02:50,950 --> 01:02:49,839
to put to one side and reject is not

1867
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:50,960
science

1868
01:03:01,030 --> 01:02:51,839
um

1869
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:01,040
i i to my mind there's two questions

1870
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,400
number one is is

1871
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:04,480
it real and then number two is well can

1872
01:03:07,109 --> 01:03:05,520
we

1873
01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:07,119
then explain it

1874
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:08,559
and

1875
01:03:13,430 --> 01:03:10,720
i don't think very many scientists get

1876
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:13,440
involved in the question of is it real

1877
01:03:19,589 --> 01:03:16,960
um it's it's just not part of what

1878
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:19,599
science asks because it's not

1879
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:22,000
there isn't that we don't have a

1880
01:03:25,430 --> 01:03:22,720
a

1881
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:25,440
um

1882
01:03:28,549 --> 01:03:27,440
really so we don't ask it

1883
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,559
and now

1884
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:30,799
so it may be real or may not be real i i

1885
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:31,920
don't know

1886
01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:33,920
i think there's another

1887
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,160
factor though which is that

1888
01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:38,640
occam's razor which underpins all of

1889
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:40,480
science really which says don't don't

1890
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:42,640
multiply causes try and find the

1891
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:45,440
simplest the simplest explanation that

1892
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:48,240
explains everything we need to know

1893
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,280
it may or may not actually be true

1894
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:53,520
but but it is what governs science which

1895
01:03:56,549 --> 01:03:55,280
is to say you first of all take the

1896
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:56,559
simplest

1897
01:04:02,309 --> 01:04:00,559
and if it doesn't work then try the next

1898
01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:02,319
simplest one and work your way up until

1899
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,119
you end up with something mad but um

1900
01:04:09,589 --> 01:04:07,520
but the problem with with with anything

1901
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:09,599
like esp is it's almost certainly not

1902
01:04:14,390 --> 01:04:12,240
the simplest explanation for things now

1903
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:14,400
if someone were to show that it's real

1904
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:16,240
and that it really is happening and and

1905
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:18,160
you know statistically in some kind of

1906
01:04:20,870 --> 01:04:19,280
trial

1907
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:20,880
it would have to be with the power of a

1908
01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:22,240
clinical trial and then it's going to

1909
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:23,920
cost a lot of money and it's going to

1910
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:25,599
you know there were so many comebacks

1911
01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:26,799
from people who are determined to

1912
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:29,680
demonstrate that it's not true

1913
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:30,960
that it would be

1914
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:32,960
a very very difficult thing to do

1915
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:37,270
then it boils down to personal

1916
01:04:41,029 --> 01:04:39,359
experience i i've never really

1917
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:41,039
you know i don't really believe in

1918
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,960
ghosts because i've never seen one or i

1919
01:04:46,390 --> 01:04:44,480
don't see any reason why they would

1920
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:46,400
exist and i've never had any experience

1921
01:04:49,670 --> 01:04:48,000
with them but perhaps if i did then i

1922
01:04:51,270 --> 01:04:49,680
would change my mind i don't really

1923
01:04:52,789 --> 01:04:51,280
believe in esp because i have these

1924
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:52,799
feelings that other people have that

1925
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:54,640
says something terrible has happened but

1926
01:04:57,990 --> 01:04:56,400
then that phone them up and nothing

1927
01:04:59,589 --> 01:04:58,000
nothing had happened it was just

1928
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:59,599
my imagination terrible happened to you

1929
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:01,119
yeah well you know

1930
01:05:04,150 --> 01:05:02,400
there's a simpler explanation which is

1931
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:04,160
just that my brain is active

1932
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:05,920
um right so

1933
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:07,359
you know you're thinking about someone

1934
01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:08,400
so so

1935
01:05:12,309 --> 01:05:10,000
and probably for most people most of the

1936
01:05:13,109 --> 01:05:12,319
time that's the real answer so i you

1937
01:05:15,190 --> 01:05:13,119
know i

1938
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:15,200
i'm skeptical of these things

1939
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:16,079
um

1940
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:17,680
but there's a whole lot more out there

1941
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:19,760
than than we know now and i've been

1942
01:05:22,789 --> 01:05:21,520
talking about fields and consciousness

1943
01:05:24,710 --> 01:05:22,799
and so on

1944
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:24,720
and that is already pushing the barrel

1945
01:05:29,109 --> 01:05:27,280
out for most biologists in terms of what

1946
01:05:30,789 --> 01:05:29,119
are we willing to accept now i think

1947
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,799
there's very strong grounds there for

1948
01:05:35,109 --> 01:05:32,880
accepting those kind of things and we

1949
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:35,119
can begin to push it into looking at

1950
01:05:38,069 --> 01:05:37,119
other languages and genes

1951
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:38,079
um

1952
01:05:41,510 --> 01:05:38,880
but

1953
01:05:43,270 --> 01:05:41,520
if i then start spouting on about esp or

1954
01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:43,280
something then then then you know i'll

1955
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:44,640
be cold-shouldered by the entire

1956
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:46,400
community and i have no desire to go

1957
01:05:50,710 --> 01:05:49,280
down that path because i have no strong

1958
01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:50,720
reason to think that there is that

1959
01:05:54,789 --> 01:05:53,200
exists anyway

1960
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:54,799
okay i don't have a question but i have

1961
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,799
a some thoughts so then i can just state

1962
01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:58,319
them and then hear what your response is

1963
01:06:02,069 --> 01:06:00,160
to them so number one when it comes to

1964
01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:02,079
occam's razor i always find that a bit

1965
01:06:05,670 --> 01:06:04,000
tricky unless someone's speaking about

1966
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:05,680
something in physical law something

1967
01:06:10,710 --> 01:06:08,640
mathematical occam's razor it's unclear

1968
01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:10,720
to me what constitutes as an assumption

1969
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:13,359
so for example in physics the way that

1970
01:06:16,870 --> 01:06:14,640
you say that

1971
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:16,880
a certain model is simpler is that you

1972
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:19,359
use less parameters to specify it so

1973
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:21,119
it's actually quantifiable how simple a

1974
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:22,799
model is and that's one of the reasons

1975
01:06:25,750 --> 01:06:24,000
why people say string theory is the most

1976
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:25,760
beautiful because it can supposedly

1977
01:06:29,270 --> 01:06:27,599
reduce it all down to one parameter it's

1978
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:29,280
still one parameter like there's no you

1979
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:30,319
have there's still some freedom there

1980
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,599
but it's one as opposed to 26 or so

1981
01:06:38,069 --> 01:06:36,079
and then so let's say the principle of

1982
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:38,079
induction in science is that one

1983
01:06:41,510 --> 01:06:40,079
assumption or is that two assumptions or

1984
01:06:42,950 --> 01:06:41,520
three assumptions because it presumes

1985
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:42,960
there exists a future in the past and

1986
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,559
then i'm sure you've heard of the

1987
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:46,559
problem of induction the point is

1988
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:48,880
if it's not mathematically stated then

1989
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:51,599
to me because my brain is so analytical

1990
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:53,280
it's difficult to see well what's being

1991
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:54,880
assumed and what's not like is god the

1992
01:06:58,390 --> 01:06:56,720
simplest assumption well then god has

1993
01:07:00,390 --> 01:06:58,400
the trouble of explaining like you can't

1994
01:07:02,309 --> 01:07:00,400
predict from that but god certainly is

1995
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:02,319
the most simple well

1996
01:07:07,430 --> 01:07:04,720
yes i mean it depends what um but then

1997
01:07:08,630 --> 01:07:07,440
it's not simply simplicity is god five

1998
01:07:10,549 --> 01:07:08,640
assumptions

1999
01:07:12,950 --> 01:07:10,559
yeah well i mean

2000
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:12,960
as soon as you start wondering

2001
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:16,079
where god came from

2002
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:17,760
you know what what gave rise to god in

2003
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:18,880
the first place there's a lot of

2004
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:21,039
assumptions behind that so something as

2005
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:23,680
as profound and all encompassing as god

2006
01:07:28,230 --> 01:07:26,160
it requires in some way an awful lot of

2007
01:07:29,829 --> 01:07:28,240
assumptions behind it but then you know

2008
01:07:31,670 --> 01:07:29,839
we know a lot about the world as well we

2009
01:07:34,069 --> 01:07:31,680
don't understand it all

2010
01:07:36,630 --> 01:07:34,079
but you know it's it's definitely four

2011
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:36,640
and a half billion years old there's

2012
01:07:39,910 --> 01:07:38,400
definitely signs of bacteria from four

2013
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:39,920
billion years ago there was definitely

2014
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:41,599
stasis for about two billion years there

2015
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:43,760
was definitely oxygen appearing

2016
01:07:48,390 --> 01:07:46,559
around 2 billion years ago

2017
01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:48,400
there were definitely more complex cells

2018
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:50,400
appearing after that we animals

2019
01:07:54,630 --> 01:07:51,839
certainly appeared around the time of

2020
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:54,640
the cambrian explosion 540 50 million

2021
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,559
years ago um

2022
01:08:01,270 --> 01:07:58,799
and and so you know any assumption that

2023
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:01,280
god did it would require either a deist

2024
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:02,799
god that set it in motion at the

2025
01:08:06,950 --> 01:08:04,240
beginning and then it follows its own

2026
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:06,960
path or a god that's kind of involved

2027
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:08,799
all the way along with every little bit

2028
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:10,400
here and there and there's no

2029
01:08:15,270 --> 01:08:12,240
there's no need for that as voltaire

2030
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:15,280
said there's no requirement to for for

2031
01:08:18,070 --> 01:08:16,400
god to

2032
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:18,080
kind of get involved in this this

2033
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:20,159
species of bacteria

2034
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:21,520
differentiating from that speech you

2035
01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:22,400
know

2036
01:08:25,510 --> 01:08:24,000
that's the level of detail he would have

2037
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:25,520
to be involved in

2038
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:27,199
so so there's no need for that

2039
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:28,560
hypothesis

2040
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:30,000
deism

2041
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,159
um i think will be very difficult to

2042
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:34,640
reject for most scientists who had an

2043
01:08:38,309 --> 01:08:35,920
open mind

2044
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:38,319
um but deism i don't think is something

2045
01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:40,480
that most people who are religious

2046
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:42,560
would be terribly happy about because i

2047
01:08:47,590 --> 01:08:45,359
think for most people god is

2048
01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:47,600
communicating with them personally in in

2049
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:48,960
one way or another so the idea that

2050
01:08:51,590 --> 01:08:50,319
there's an aloof god somewhere at the

2051
01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,600
other end of the universe that sets

2052
01:08:55,110 --> 01:08:53,120
everything sets the laws of physics in

2053
01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:55,120
motion and then steps back and is never

2054
01:08:59,510 --> 01:08:56,960
seen again is not much of a comforting

2055
01:09:00,789 --> 01:08:59,520
figure for for most people but but

2056
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:00,799
frankly

2057
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:03,839
what we know about the world

2058
01:09:07,510 --> 01:09:05,600
if it's consistent with any form of god

2059
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:07,520
is is more consistent with the deist

2060
01:09:13,590 --> 01:09:09,600
form of god i would say than anything

2061
01:09:15,269 --> 01:09:13,600
else um so then there are assumptions

2062
01:09:16,709 --> 01:09:15,279
and science works on these assumptions

2063
01:09:18,070 --> 01:09:16,719
and they may or may not be the simplest

2064
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:18,080
ones but they underpin everything and

2065
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:22,000
one of them is that um it's naturalistic

2066
01:09:28,470 --> 01:09:24,400
that it's not miracles that's not

2067
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:28,480
science that's an assumption we assume

2068
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:29,440
that

2069
01:09:32,550 --> 01:09:30,480
um

2070
01:09:34,950 --> 01:09:32,560
the that life started

2071
01:09:36,870 --> 01:09:34,960
uh and and and that we can understand

2072
01:09:39,269 --> 01:09:36,880
the principles that govern the origin of

2073
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:39,279
life and and the evolution of life and

2074
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:40,159
so on

2075
01:09:43,749 --> 01:09:42,239
it may be that there were miracles it

2076
01:09:45,269 --> 01:09:43,759
may be that it was delivered from outer

2077
01:09:46,630 --> 01:09:45,279
space there's all kinds of things that

2078
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:46,640
could have happened

2079
01:09:50,229 --> 01:09:48,719
but we make a simplifying assumption

2080
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:50,239
that it happened here on earth and it

2081
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:51,600
happened for naturalistic reasons and

2082
01:09:55,510 --> 01:09:53,679
therefore we don't call on a miracle and

2083
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:55,520
that we can understand those

2084
01:09:59,189 --> 01:09:57,360
naturalistic reasons these are three

2085
01:10:01,030 --> 01:09:59,199
huge assumptions

2086
01:10:02,790 --> 01:10:01,040
that may not be true there's nothing

2087
01:10:05,910 --> 01:10:02,800
scientific about them but all of science

2088
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:05,920
is built on those ideas and and

2089
01:10:11,270 --> 01:10:08,480
the reason that i believe it to be true

2090
01:10:13,510 --> 01:10:11,280
and and most scientists would is that

2091
01:10:15,669 --> 01:10:13,520
well everything we know about the world

2092
01:10:17,910 --> 01:10:15,679
is consistent with that idea so

2093
01:10:20,550 --> 01:10:17,920
everything i was saying earlier on about

2094
01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:20,560
um you start with carbon dioxide and

2095
01:10:23,590 --> 01:10:22,080
hydrogen and you get krebs cycle

2096
01:10:24,870 --> 01:10:23,600
intermediates and you have electrical

2097
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:24,880
charges on barriers in these

2098
01:10:28,790 --> 01:10:27,360
hydrothermal vel all of this is

2099
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:28,800
is consistent

2100
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:32,000
with the naturalistic origin of life

2101
01:10:35,430 --> 01:10:34,000
it's a long long way from proving that

2102
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,440
that's what happened

2103
01:10:39,510 --> 01:10:37,679
but everything i know about it is

2104
01:10:41,189 --> 01:10:39,520
consistent with it sufficiently that i

2105
01:10:43,270 --> 01:10:41,199
have some faith

2106
01:10:44,630 --> 01:10:43,280
and i'm using the word deliberately

2107
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:44,640
faith that

2108
01:10:47,350 --> 01:10:45,920
the gaps

2109
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:47,360
between the bits that i know a little

2110
01:10:51,750 --> 01:10:49,760
bit about and and this long spectrum of

2111
01:10:53,189 --> 01:10:51,760
things that i don't know much about can

2112
01:10:55,189 --> 01:10:53,199
be filled in

2113
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:55,199
in due course if we keep on thinking

2114
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:58,320
constructively in that way so i think

2115
01:11:02,070 --> 01:11:00,000
you know science is always based on

2116
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:02,080
assumptions and it's always

2117
01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:04,159
based on some form of faith which most

2118
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:06,080
scientists are very reluctant to use the

2119
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:08,000
word faith because in a religious sense

2120
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:09,520
faith very often means belief in

2121
01:11:13,189 --> 01:11:10,719
something which

2122
01:11:15,990 --> 01:11:13,199
which is uh

2123
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:16,000
you know irrational in some way that

2124
01:11:22,630 --> 01:11:19,199
it goes against the evidence

2125
01:11:24,630 --> 01:11:22,640
whereas in science faith is perhaps more

2126
01:11:25,910 --> 01:11:24,640
about i have faith that there'll be more

2127
01:11:27,910 --> 01:11:25,920
of this kind of evidence that will

2128
01:11:29,750 --> 01:11:27,920
explain the way that the world is it's a

2129
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:29,760
form of faith

2130
01:11:34,070 --> 01:11:31,280
it may or may not be true it may be

2131
01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:34,080
delusional but it's very powerful

2132
01:11:37,669 --> 01:11:36,080
because it's led to all these scientific

2133
01:11:41,270 --> 01:11:37,679
advances that we see in the world and

2134
01:11:43,030 --> 01:11:41,280
that leads people and most people to

2135
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:43,040
to begin to believe that

2136
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:45,199
science really can explain the world and

2137
01:11:49,510 --> 01:11:46,640
there really isn't

2138
01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:49,520
a need for a god to explain the world

2139
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,280
unless it be a deist god that put these

2140
01:11:54,870 --> 01:11:52,719
principles

2141
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:54,880
in place in the first place

2142
01:11:58,149 --> 01:11:56,719
and that you know

2143
01:12:00,229 --> 01:11:58,159
that's the way i would see it but i have

2144
01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:00,239
a lot of sympathy with people who prefer

2145
01:12:04,550 --> 01:12:02,320
a religious view of the world there are

2146
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:04,560
and i and and i certainly couldn't argue

2147
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:06,960
against the deist's position

2148
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,040
i wouldn't say that it's a minority the

2149
01:12:13,110 --> 01:12:11,040
deus position well when i say minority i

2150
01:12:15,110 --> 01:12:13,120
mean it's a sizable minority if it

2151
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:15,120
exists because when i was looking at the

2152
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:17,920
pew research data on belief i believe

2153
01:12:22,390 --> 01:12:20,000
something like 10 to 20 to 30 let's say

2154
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:22,400
10 to 30 percent of people believe in a

2155
01:12:26,550 --> 01:12:24,400
deist god of those who say that they

2156
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:26,560
believe in god that's sizeable because i

2157
01:12:31,830 --> 01:12:28,800
thought it would be 0.02

2158
01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:31,840
like the gnostics or something yes

2159
01:12:35,189 --> 01:12:33,440
i would expect it to be smaller as well

2160
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:35,199
yeah it's an extreme amount and then

2161
01:12:38,550 --> 01:12:36,880
secondly that

2162
01:12:39,669 --> 01:12:38,560
there's a sizable portion of people who

2163
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:39,679
believe that

2164
01:12:44,550 --> 01:12:42,159
the definition of god is reality so by

2165
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:44,560
doing science one is studying god and

2166
01:12:49,669 --> 01:12:46,640
it's not so i used to be the son and i i

2167
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:49,679
i love that as an idea i have to say i

2168
01:12:54,630 --> 01:12:52,000
don't i don't personally believe in god

2169
01:12:57,189 --> 01:12:54,640
but but but the idea

2170
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,199
that you know people who have tried to

2171
01:13:01,510 --> 01:13:00,000
understand the world in the past as as

2172
01:13:03,669 --> 01:13:01,520
the world

2173
01:13:06,149 --> 01:13:03,679
that god put there

2174
01:13:07,830 --> 01:13:06,159
i have a huge fellow feeling with them

2175
01:13:09,430 --> 01:13:07,840
that you know they they were trying to

2176
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:09,440
understand the world they were trying in

2177
01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:11,600
some way to understand the mind of god

2178
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:14,000
um it's

2179
01:13:18,550 --> 01:13:17,040
what is nobler in this world and trying

2180
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,560
to understand

2181
01:13:22,390 --> 01:13:20,719
these things and whether or not you put

2182
01:13:23,510 --> 01:13:22,400
the word god at the end of it

2183
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:23,520
it seems to me almost a trivial

2184
01:13:31,830 --> 01:13:28,550
i remember my grandma saying to me

2185
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:31,840
years and years ago that uh to her god

2186
01:13:35,110 --> 01:13:33,679
was the voice in her head that told her

2187
01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:35,120
what was right or what was wrong it was

2188
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:37,199
basically her conscience and i remember

2189
01:13:39,990 --> 01:13:38,800
saying to her well i have a voice in my

2190
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:40,000
head that tells me what's right and

2191
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:41,360
what's wrong and i don't think that it's

2192
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:42,960
god and she was shocked and horrified

2193
01:13:47,830 --> 01:13:44,000
that

2194
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:47,840
believe in god and and it hurt her

2195
01:13:51,270 --> 01:13:48,960
deeply

2196
01:13:54,149 --> 01:13:51,280
and and i've never quite forgiven myself

2197
01:13:56,630 --> 01:13:54,159
and and you know i'm very careful

2198
01:13:58,229 --> 01:13:56,640
to try not to offend people because to

2199
01:14:01,430 --> 01:13:58,239
me it's

2200
01:14:03,510 --> 01:14:01,440
it's not very far away it's uh it's just

2201
01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:03,520
ways of phrasing things ways of seeing

2202
01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:04,640
things and there's no need to be

2203
01:14:09,189 --> 01:14:06,800
deliberately offensive to people when

2204
01:14:12,070 --> 01:14:09,199
actually we we may both see the glory of

2205
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:12,080
the world and want to understand it

2206
01:14:14,870 --> 01:14:13,679
okay let me get philosophical here for a

2207
01:14:16,229 --> 01:14:14,880
moment

2208
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:16,239
i think that was about as philosophical

2209
01:14:18,950 --> 01:14:17,520
as i can get

2210
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,960
i may not stick when it comes to this so

2211
01:14:22,070 --> 01:14:20,400
i'm not coming at this from a religious

2212
01:14:24,709 --> 01:14:22,080
perspective just so you know so you can

2213
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:24,719
feel safe to to surmise in any direction

2214
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:26,640
what basis so your mother sorry your

2215
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:28,159
grandmother had a basis to believe in

2216
01:14:31,669 --> 01:14:28,880
the

2217
01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:31,679
to follow her conscience if you don't

2218
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:33,440
believe that comes from some higher

2219
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:36,159
place what does hire mean who knows

2220
01:14:39,990 --> 01:14:37,840
for the sake of this let's just put that

2221
01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:40,000
aside and assume that we can intuit that

2222
01:14:43,669 --> 01:14:41,679
then why should you follow your

2223
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:43,679
conscience

2224
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:48,000
the context of society of human

2225
01:14:51,590 --> 01:14:50,560
societies of groups of human groups

2226
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:51,600
um

2227
01:14:54,830 --> 01:14:53,760
to my mind at least you know there's all

2228
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:54,840
this

2229
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:57,520
um interesting questions about human

2230
01:15:01,910 --> 01:14:58,800
evolution

2231
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:01,920
when and why did we

2232
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:03,360
develop in the way that we did when did

2233
01:15:08,229 --> 01:15:04,800
the human mind

2234
01:15:10,950 --> 01:15:08,239
take on the ability to be creative to do

2235
01:15:11,669 --> 01:15:10,960
art to believe in gods and and what have

2236
01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:11,679
you

2237
01:15:15,910 --> 01:15:14,960
the things that we think of as human

2238
01:15:18,709 --> 01:15:15,920
um

2239
01:15:20,709 --> 01:15:18,719
and it's not obviously to do with tool

2240
01:15:24,149 --> 01:15:20,719
use for example they often you know the

2241
01:15:26,310 --> 01:15:24,159
use of of uh flints and things and

2242
01:15:27,430 --> 01:15:26,320
spearheads goes back

2243
01:15:29,110 --> 01:15:27,440
um

2244
01:15:31,510 --> 01:15:29,120
you know hundreds of thousands of years

2245
01:15:33,350 --> 01:15:31,520
if not more than that um

2246
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:33,360
and didn't change very much over a long

2247
01:15:37,910 --> 01:15:36,159
time and and things like fire it's a

2248
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:37,920
little difficult to know exactly when

2249
01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:39,840
was fire invented and language is

2250
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:41,440
another thing that we tend to as soon as

2251
01:15:45,669 --> 01:15:43,440
we've got language then then we develop

2252
01:15:47,590 --> 01:15:45,679
our minds in some way the one thing that

2253
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:47,600
it seems to correlate with most

2254
01:15:51,030 --> 01:15:49,040
interestingly

2255
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:51,040
is population density

2256
01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:53,760
this is work uh that that i i know of

2257
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:56,480
from mark thomas um who's a colleague at

2258
01:15:59,669 --> 01:15:57,679
ucl

2259
01:16:05,030 --> 01:15:59,679
um

2260
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:05,040
it corresponds to climate change all

2261
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:06,480
kinds of things that we're

2262
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:09,440
very familiar with now but if you have

2263
01:16:12,630 --> 01:16:11,120
multiple groups of people that are

2264
01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:12,640
interacting with each other regularly

2265
01:16:17,030 --> 01:16:14,560
whether it be through warfare or whether

2266
01:16:18,830 --> 01:16:17,040
it be you know much more

2267
01:16:20,470 --> 01:16:18,840
congenial interactions

2268
01:16:22,790 --> 01:16:20,480
um

2269
01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:22,800
those interactions are forcing

2270
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:25,840
creativity and ingenuity and you know

2271
01:16:29,830 --> 01:16:28,320
sense of loyalty or tribalism or

2272
01:16:32,310 --> 01:16:29,840
whatever it may be

2273
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:32,320
and right and wrong it can hardly help

2274
01:16:37,669 --> 01:16:35,040
but you know it has to emerge in that

2275
01:16:40,149 --> 01:16:37,679
kind of an environment

2276
01:16:41,110 --> 01:16:40,159
and it has to be very conflicted

2277
01:16:42,790 --> 01:16:41,120
you know

2278
01:16:44,070 --> 01:16:42,800
surely anybody knows that the people in

2279
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:44,080
the tribe over there that you've been

2280
01:16:47,910 --> 01:16:45,840
brought up to hate are human beings too

2281
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:47,920
and have you know have everything that

2282
01:16:52,070 --> 01:16:49,199
you have

2283
01:16:54,390 --> 01:16:52,080
why do you hate them because your

2284
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:54,400
tribe brought you up in some way

2285
01:17:00,550 --> 01:16:55,280
you know

2286
01:17:05,030 --> 01:17:02,709
our sense of right and wrong

2287
01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:05,040
comes from this kind of conflicted

2288
01:17:09,110 --> 01:17:07,360
feeling of fellow humans and loyalty to

2289
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:09,120
groups and whatever else and no wonder

2290
01:17:13,750 --> 01:17:11,280
we can't agree about it it's uh you know

2291
01:17:16,149 --> 01:17:13,760
it's it's grounded very deeply in

2292
01:17:18,149 --> 01:17:16,159
in our emotions as individuals in the

2293
01:17:19,830 --> 01:17:18,159
social context

2294
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:19,840
let me stay on this philosophical course

2295
01:17:24,550 --> 01:17:22,560
for just a few moments longer so firstly

2296
01:17:26,149 --> 01:17:24,560
this assumption which i believe is a

2297
01:17:27,990 --> 01:17:26,159
great assumption but it's i do believe

2298
01:17:29,590 --> 01:17:28,000
it to be an assumption that we're all

2299
01:17:31,270 --> 01:17:29,600
human the reason why i say that is that

2300
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:31,280
while human biologically yes but human

2301
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:32,880
also has a connotation of you being

2302
01:17:36,229 --> 01:17:34,320
worth a certain amount and having

2303
01:17:38,149 --> 01:17:36,239
dignity afford it to you and your rights

2304
01:17:40,630 --> 01:17:38,159
the same as mine that's fairly fairly

2305
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:40,640
new genghis khan for example well many

2306
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:42,960
if you just go back 1 000 years or 2 000

2307
01:17:47,910 --> 01:17:46,159
or 3000 years human is my tribe you're

2308
01:17:49,189 --> 01:17:47,920
not human you're inhuman you're

2309
01:17:51,350 --> 01:17:49,199
sub-human

2310
01:17:52,630 --> 01:17:51,360
yeah yeah i mean i don't know enough

2311
01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:52,640
history

2312
01:17:57,430 --> 01:17:55,360
to comment on that um

2313
01:17:58,950 --> 01:17:57,440
i i i mean i find it hard to believe

2314
01:18:01,590 --> 01:17:58,960
that

2315
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:01,600
way

2316
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,600
um it seems

2317
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:06,080
i mean you know culture and society will

2318
01:18:09,830 --> 01:18:07,520
tell us that there are differences

2319
01:18:11,110 --> 01:18:09,840
between people and racism and everything

2320
01:18:14,630 --> 01:18:11,120
else

2321
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:17,910
sustained human history but but but it's

2322
01:18:22,149 --> 01:18:19,760
it's kind of obvious and we know now you

2323
01:18:23,590 --> 01:18:22,159
know genetically and scientifically that

2324
01:18:26,550 --> 01:18:23,600
there are essentially we're amazingly

2325
01:18:27,990 --> 01:18:26,560
similar to each other as humans um we we

2326
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:28,000
we we're

2327
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,000
evolutionarily very closely related to

2328
01:18:34,470 --> 01:18:32,159
each other we've diverged very recently

2329
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:34,480
and we have all of these systems

2330
01:18:37,990 --> 01:18:35,280
for

2331
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:38,000
you know categorizing people and i'm

2332
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:39,600
part of it in the sense that i work in

2333
01:18:43,110 --> 01:18:42,000
the university and i you know mark exams

2334
01:18:45,590 --> 01:18:43,120
and things like that and i'm very

2335
01:18:47,350 --> 01:18:45,600
conflicted over exams because they they

2336
01:18:48,550 --> 01:18:47,360
they they mark a certain type of

2337
01:18:51,110 --> 01:18:48,560
intelligence

2338
01:18:52,550 --> 01:18:51,120
and they give credit to and you know

2339
01:18:55,430 --> 01:18:52,560
there's so many different types of

2340
01:18:57,270 --> 01:18:55,440
intelligence that we're not adept at

2341
01:18:59,590 --> 01:18:57,280
categorizing

2342
01:19:00,310 --> 01:18:59,600
and very often to my mind the people who

2343
01:19:02,149 --> 01:19:00,320
are

2344
01:19:03,510 --> 01:19:02,159
the best researchers

2345
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:03,520
they're not necessarily the people who

2346
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:06,480
do best in exams they're the people who

2347
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,560
who think about things in their own way

2348
01:19:12,550 --> 01:19:10,880
and who are obsessive about the question

2349
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:12,560
and who who who

2350
01:19:16,630 --> 01:19:14,960
keep on pondering it and don't give up

2351
01:19:17,910 --> 01:19:16,640
very often and there are you know there

2352
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:17,920
are some effortlessly brilliant people

2353
01:19:21,270 --> 01:19:19,440
but there are also you know darwin

2354
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:21,280
himself was probably

2355
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:23,600
not necessarily the sharpest cookie in

2356
01:19:28,149 --> 01:19:26,159
the basket but he he he asked and kept

2357
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:28,159
on asking these questions and

2358
01:19:31,669 --> 01:19:30,400
and and and and ended up coming up with

2359
01:19:33,669 --> 01:19:31,679
answers that were more important than

2360
01:19:35,590 --> 01:19:33,679
anybody else's is different forms of

2361
01:19:37,030 --> 01:19:35,600
intelligence and you know

2362
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:37,040
western

2363
01:19:45,510 --> 01:19:42,960
over over over centuries to

2364
01:19:46,950 --> 01:19:45,520
to categorize and to have a hierarchy

2365
01:19:48,630 --> 01:19:46,960
and to put the white man at the top of

2366
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:48,640
the hierarchy and it's so patently not

2367
01:19:55,110 --> 01:19:52,320
true um the the it's shocking that it

2368
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:57,430
okay so then here's some more thoughts

2369
01:20:00,550 --> 01:19:59,280
again a few questions but just thoughts

2370
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:00,560
and then we'll get back to some well

2371
01:20:04,390 --> 01:20:02,480
these are biological questions so we're

2372
01:20:06,229 --> 01:20:04,400
saying that hey humans are so related to

2373
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:06,239
one another and so it's difficult for

2374
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:07,920
you to imagine that other people would

2375
01:20:11,189 --> 01:20:09,360
think of other people's not being human

2376
01:20:12,630 --> 01:20:11,199
but then to me i was like okay well we

2377
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:12,640
have another spectrum issue there

2378
01:20:16,390 --> 01:20:14,480
because it's arbitrary where we define

2379
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,400
the line as being sufficiently different

2380
01:20:20,630 --> 01:20:18,239
enough to not call human and then

2381
01:20:23,350 --> 01:20:20,640
secondly it's unclear as to what makes

2382
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:23,360
you you is it purely your dna but or is

2383
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:24,800
it also the culture and the ideas that

2384
01:20:26,709 --> 01:20:25,679
you

2385
01:20:29,270 --> 01:20:26,719
of course it's that culture and the

2386
01:20:31,270 --> 01:20:29,280
ideas and then if so well then what we

2387
01:20:32,630 --> 01:20:31,280
can say is this tribe has a right to say

2388
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:32,640
that you are sufficiently different than

2389
01:20:37,510 --> 01:20:35,440
me unless you convert to me

2390
01:20:39,910 --> 01:20:37,520
uh i mean this is the nature of human

2391
01:20:41,510 --> 01:20:39,920
history isn't it it is tribalism and it

2392
01:20:43,590 --> 01:20:41,520
is it is

2393
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:43,600
generating a sense of difference

2394
01:20:47,590 --> 01:20:45,360
um i mean you could almost say that

2395
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:47,600
culture has has gone out of its way to

2396
01:20:51,110 --> 01:20:50,159
erect differences where they don't exist

2397
01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:51,120
um

2398
01:20:55,830 --> 01:20:53,840
you know i think individuals will always

2399
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:55,840
if if two people from any culture

2400
01:20:59,110 --> 01:20:57,520
anywhere in the world are left as the

2401
01:21:00,390 --> 01:20:59,120
only two people left on the world and

2402
01:21:01,750 --> 01:21:00,400
are forced to talk to each other they

2403
01:21:03,189 --> 01:21:01,760
will realize they have everything in

2404
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:03,199
common with each other and you know it's

2405
01:21:06,550 --> 01:21:05,520
it was true for practically anybody on

2406
01:21:09,430 --> 01:21:06,560
earth now

2407
01:21:11,830 --> 01:21:09,440
um and always has been but this you know

2408
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:11,840
this idea of human or non-human or you

2409
01:21:14,630 --> 01:21:12,480
know

2410
01:21:17,750 --> 01:21:14,640
biology is so full of continua

2411
01:21:18,709 --> 01:21:17,760
um was the neanderthal of human

2412
01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,719
being

2413
01:21:22,229 --> 01:21:20,159
you know there was plenty in common i'm

2414
01:21:25,910 --> 01:21:22,239
sure there are gradations everywhere and

2415
01:21:28,229 --> 01:21:25,920
there isn't a there isn't a cutoff point

2416
01:21:30,950 --> 01:21:28,239
okay so then the last and i'll stop this

2417
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:30,960
digression the last point is that if we

2418
01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:34,320
agree that tribalism is natural and is

2419
01:21:38,630 --> 01:21:36,000
almost a universal

2420
01:21:40,390 --> 01:21:38,640
then what if one's conscience

2421
01:21:42,630 --> 01:21:40,400
led them in the direction of saying hey

2422
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:42,640
in order for my genes to survive it's

2423
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:44,800
better than my group compete with your

2424
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:46,719
group and my conscience is telling me so

2425
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:47,920
so this gets back to the question

2426
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:49,600
because i was asking yes well why follow

2427
01:21:53,189 --> 01:21:51,120
your conscience and you're saying well

2428
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:53,199
because it developed evolutionarily well

2429
01:21:57,669 --> 01:21:55,760
what i'm saying is i can imagine it

2430
01:21:59,990 --> 01:21:57,679
yes yes in other words you're saying

2431
01:22:01,270 --> 01:22:00,000
it's wrong it grew up in the context of

2432
01:22:04,229 --> 01:22:01,280
tribalism

2433
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:04,239
uh and antagonism between different

2434
01:22:08,229 --> 01:22:06,719
groups of people therefore and i said

2435
01:22:10,950 --> 01:22:08,239
you know the sense of right and wrong is

2436
01:22:12,629 --> 01:22:10,960
deeply conflicted and i'm probably not a

2437
01:22:14,470 --> 01:22:12,639
good guide to things

2438
01:22:15,990 --> 01:22:14,480
one of the i think one of the great

2439
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:16,000
things about

2440
01:22:25,189 --> 01:22:22,629
as i i suppose

2441
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:25,199
the the history

2442
01:22:32,790 --> 01:22:30,149
the uh from from the renaissance onwards

2443
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:32,800
is is attempt to break down

2444
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:35,040
some of these barriers

2445
01:22:41,189 --> 01:22:39,280
um to to to think in broad terms about

2446
01:22:42,390 --> 01:22:41,199
what human rights are and what what

2447
01:22:44,229 --> 01:22:42,400
what's

2448
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:44,239
what are humans you know it's been a

2449
01:22:48,229 --> 01:22:46,480
very

2450
01:22:49,510 --> 01:22:48,239
you know it omitted women for a long

2451
01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:49,520
time and i've missed different groups

2452
01:22:52,390 --> 01:22:51,440
for a long time but but it was an

2453
01:22:53,270 --> 01:22:52,400
attempt

2454
01:22:57,910 --> 01:22:53,280
to

2455
01:22:59,430 --> 01:22:57,920
people as

2456
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:59,440
as equal

2457
01:23:03,510 --> 01:23:01,440
and this idea that we're equal is

2458
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:03,520
obviously again

2459
01:23:06,870 --> 01:23:05,199
we're not equal we're not equal

2460
01:23:09,270 --> 01:23:06,880
genetically we're all different

2461
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:09,280
genetically we're all an equal almost by

2462
01:23:11,830 --> 01:23:10,400
definition that doesn't mean to say

2463
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:11,840
someone's better than someone else is

2464
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:12,800
different

2465
01:23:18,310 --> 01:23:15,760
now and we come from societal cultural

2466
01:23:19,910 --> 01:23:18,320
contexts which are different

2467
01:23:21,750 --> 01:23:19,920
and which condition you to think

2468
01:23:25,110 --> 01:23:21,760
differently about things and those are

2469
01:23:27,189 --> 01:23:25,120
breaking down and and thank god for that

2470
01:23:30,470 --> 01:23:27,199
we lose we lose things when they break

2471
01:23:32,709 --> 01:23:30,480
down you know we we we lose our

2472
01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:32,719
our our culture our tradition is that

2473
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:34,719
you know people lose groups lose

2474
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:39,350
there's a loss to

2475
01:23:44,070 --> 01:23:42,320
seeing humanity as a single

2476
01:23:45,669 --> 01:23:44,080
unit a global

2477
01:23:50,790 --> 01:23:45,679
family if you like

2478
01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:50,800
there's there's all the all the cultural

2479
01:23:55,910 --> 01:23:53,600
histories that groups have which are

2480
01:23:57,910 --> 01:23:55,920
wonderful and often you know different

2481
01:23:59,110 --> 01:23:57,920
but but similar

2482
01:24:01,189 --> 01:23:59,120
um

2483
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:01,199
they can be engulfed and they can be

2484
01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:04,159
lost and and it's in a way it's tragic

2485
01:24:08,870 --> 01:24:06,960
but at the same time if if what we do is

2486
01:24:11,430 --> 01:24:08,880
cling to the

2487
01:24:13,830 --> 01:24:11,440
the differences and the cultural things

2488
01:24:16,870 --> 01:24:13,840
that set you apart from everybody else

2489
01:24:18,470 --> 01:24:16,880
and and then look down on other groups i

2490
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:18,480
don't think there's anything in the in

2491
01:24:22,149 --> 01:24:20,960
in biology that that says that that's

2492
01:24:24,070 --> 01:24:22,159
the case

2493
01:24:26,709 --> 01:24:24,080
um

2494
01:24:29,590 --> 01:24:26,719
so you know what we need is somewhere

2495
01:24:31,350 --> 01:24:29,600
in the middle where we where we we we

2496
01:24:35,590 --> 01:24:31,360
we're proud of our cultures we're proud

2497
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:35,600
of our traditions but we somehow um

2498
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:37,679
understand other groups as equally human

2499
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:39,040
with equally

2500
01:24:43,030 --> 01:24:41,440
valid and important traditions that we

2501
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:43,040
live side by side together one of the

2502
01:24:46,229 --> 01:24:44,480
lovely things about living in a place

2503
01:24:48,229 --> 01:24:46,239
like london is it's often called a

2504
01:24:50,950 --> 01:24:48,239
melting pot but you know different

2505
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:50,960
cultures live side by side

2506
01:24:53,669 --> 01:24:52,560
i won't say happily but reasonably

2507
01:24:55,830 --> 01:24:53,679
happily

2508
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:55,840
people from countries that are at war

2509
01:24:58,950 --> 01:24:57,679
elsewhere in the world will we'll rub

2510
01:25:01,110 --> 01:24:58,960
shoulders together in a place like

2511
01:25:03,430 --> 01:25:01,120
london and get along together okay and

2512
01:25:05,830 --> 01:25:03,440
and and maintain something of their

2513
01:25:07,510 --> 01:25:05,840
culture and their own sense of identity

2514
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:07,520
and self-worth

2515
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:12,639
without without hating everybody else

2516
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:14,320
okay let's get back to the book this is

2517
01:25:17,590 --> 01:25:16,400
a great transition because you mentioned

2518
01:25:19,030 --> 01:25:17,600
we should it would be great if we

2519
01:25:20,950 --> 01:25:19,040
thought of ourselves as a part of a

2520
01:25:23,110 --> 01:25:20,960
larger whole in the beginning of the

2521
01:25:25,590 --> 01:25:23,120
book i recall there was an analogy made

2522
01:25:27,830 --> 01:25:25,600
between a city and a cell and saying

2523
01:25:29,430 --> 01:25:27,840
okay let's zoom out at a helicopter view

2524
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:29,440
and look at a city and it looks akin to

2525
01:25:34,629 --> 01:25:30,480
a cell

2526
01:25:36,550 --> 01:25:34,639
well i don't know if that's true but it

2527
01:25:39,030 --> 01:25:36,560
doesn't look much like a cell but yes i

2528
01:25:39,990 --> 01:25:39,040
mean i was i was i was uh comparing it

2529
01:25:41,590 --> 01:25:40,000
because there's plainly there's

2530
01:25:42,870 --> 01:25:41,600
metabolism there's movement there's

2531
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:42,880
there's all kinds of things happening in

2532
01:25:47,910 --> 01:25:45,040
the city yes and then there was a line

2533
01:25:49,510 --> 01:25:47,920
that said the cell is living potentially

2534
01:25:51,430 --> 01:25:49,520
the cell is living but

2535
01:25:52,950 --> 01:25:51,440
it's but obviously the city is not

2536
01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:52,960
something like that obviously i was

2537
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,560
thinking is it is it obviously that the

2538
01:25:58,149 --> 01:25:56,159
city's not like what makes something

2539
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:58,159
living is it just is it something that

2540
01:26:02,229 --> 01:26:00,159
this is obvious that the city is not its

2541
01:26:04,070 --> 01:26:02,239
own conscious being if if one of our

2542
01:26:05,430 --> 01:26:04,080
neurons has some proto-consciousness but

2543
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:05,440
then the collection of them also have a

2544
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:07,360
larger consciousness are we a part of a

2545
01:26:11,189 --> 01:26:09,040
larger consciousness or is it slow

2546
01:26:13,350 --> 01:26:11,199
transmission speed yeah what you're back

2547
01:26:14,870 --> 01:26:13,360
to there really is is consciousness an

2548
01:26:16,950 --> 01:26:14,880
emergent property of a sufficiently

2549
01:26:19,270 --> 01:26:16,960
complex system

2550
01:26:20,390 --> 01:26:19,280
uh and what i was arguing earlier on is

2551
01:26:23,189 --> 01:26:20,400
that it's not

2552
01:26:25,990 --> 01:26:23,199
um that it's it is a property of an

2553
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:26,000
extremely complex central nervous system

2554
01:26:30,390 --> 01:26:28,560
but but what it wasn't an emergent

2555
01:26:32,629 --> 01:26:30,400
property from it it was it was something

2556
01:26:35,110 --> 01:26:32,639
which was an integral part of that

2557
01:26:36,149 --> 01:26:35,120
complex system from the very beginning

2558
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:36,159
i was talking about the language of

2559
01:26:39,910 --> 01:26:37,920
electrical fields and cells and so on

2560
01:26:41,590 --> 01:26:39,920
and this is what has been has been

2561
01:26:43,030 --> 01:26:41,600
ramped up and so

2562
01:26:44,229 --> 01:26:43,040
the the very

2563
01:26:46,629 --> 01:26:44,239
um

2564
01:26:49,110 --> 01:26:46,639
complex feelings and so on that we have

2565
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:49,120
now are effectively

2566
01:26:52,550 --> 01:26:50,400
they've been through a process of

2567
01:26:54,229 --> 01:26:52,560
natural selection they have real meaning

2568
01:26:56,550 --> 01:26:54,239
for us because they've really been

2569
01:26:58,709 --> 01:26:56,560
selected we really

2570
01:27:01,590 --> 01:26:58,719
do it really does matter

2571
01:27:03,110 --> 01:27:01,600
um if you're starving or if you're if

2572
01:27:07,669 --> 01:27:03,120
you're

2573
01:27:08,709 --> 01:27:07,679
dying of thirst or if you

2574
01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:08,719
are

2575
01:27:12,790 --> 01:27:10,560
you know in in love or whatever it may

2576
01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:12,800
be these feelings are real because

2577
01:27:17,189 --> 01:27:14,639
they've been through

2578
01:27:20,229 --> 01:27:17,199
essentially

2579
01:27:23,030 --> 01:27:20,239
uncountable generations where

2580
01:27:25,189 --> 01:27:23,040
they bore some resemblance to

2581
01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:25,199
what happened to you what

2582
01:27:30,870 --> 01:27:28,400
to people to animals to organisms

2583
01:27:33,510 --> 01:27:30,880
in their lives that if you

2584
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:33,520
if you have this overwhelming

2585
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:35,280
fear of something and you run away you

2586
01:27:39,750 --> 01:27:38,159
will do better if this overwhelming

2587
01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:39,760
sense of something

2588
01:27:44,229 --> 01:27:42,400
um has a selective value

2589
01:27:45,910 --> 01:27:44,239
and at the level of single cells it has

2590
01:27:47,590 --> 01:27:45,920
a selective value just in terms of

2591
01:27:49,350 --> 01:27:47,600
integrating the cell as a unit as

2592
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:49,360
something which can physically go over

2593
01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:50,960
there rather than have this flagellum

2594
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:52,320
firing that way and this one going and

2595
01:27:55,189 --> 01:27:54,080
under what you know what what integrates

2596
01:27:56,070 --> 01:27:55,199
this system

2597
01:27:58,629 --> 01:27:56,080
um

2598
01:28:01,910 --> 01:27:58,639
so so so you have a you have a system

2599
01:28:05,669 --> 01:28:01,920
which is capable of of a purpose if you

2600
01:28:06,629 --> 01:28:05,679
like to read too big a word into it um

2601
01:28:08,709 --> 01:28:06,639
and that

2602
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:08,719
has been honed by selection and ends up

2603
01:28:11,590 --> 01:28:10,159
in a central nervous system but it's not

2604
01:28:13,270 --> 01:28:11,600
an emergent property it's something

2605
01:28:16,070 --> 01:28:13,280
which was built in from the very

2606
01:28:18,629 --> 01:28:16,080
beginning and has just been been kind of

2607
01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:18,639
raised as part of the edifice

2608
01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:20,639
now from the from that point of view a

2609
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:22,400
city

2610
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:23,920
you know it hasn't it hasn't been

2611
01:28:28,390 --> 01:28:26,000
through generations it hasn't given rise

2612
01:28:30,310 --> 01:28:28,400
directly to an offspring city it hasn't

2613
01:28:32,790 --> 01:28:30,320
competed it hasn't died you know

2614
01:28:35,189 --> 01:28:32,800
it doesn't it doesn't have any of these

2615
01:28:37,590 --> 01:28:35,199
biological mechanisms of selection so i

2616
01:28:39,189 --> 01:28:37,600
think any biologist and maybe we're very

2617
01:28:41,030 --> 01:28:39,199
limited here but any biologist would

2618
01:28:43,669 --> 01:28:41,040
immediately say a city's not alive as i

2619
01:28:45,430 --> 01:28:43,679
did any physicist would probably say

2620
01:28:46,790 --> 01:28:45,440
well hang on a minute do you are you

2621
01:28:48,470 --> 01:28:46,800
really so confident that you know what

2622
01:28:50,070 --> 01:28:48,480
life is that you can say that the city

2623
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:50,080
is definitely not alive

2624
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:51,120
um

2625
01:28:55,110 --> 01:28:52,719
and

2626
01:28:56,790 --> 01:28:55,120
that boils down you know i had a

2627
01:28:58,310 --> 01:28:56,800
subtitle of an earlier book was why is

2628
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:58,320
life the way it is and

2629
01:29:03,030 --> 01:29:00,239
and the question to me is actually a

2630
01:29:04,950 --> 01:29:03,040
really serious question which is does it

2631
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:04,960
have to be this way

2632
01:29:09,110 --> 01:29:06,480
is it or could it have been a different

2633
01:29:12,709 --> 01:29:09,120
way could we have fred hoyle's black

2634
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:12,719
cloud could we could a city be alive can

2635
01:29:16,470 --> 01:29:13,600
uh

2636
01:29:17,270 --> 01:29:16,480
can can ai become alive

2637
01:29:19,350 --> 01:29:17,280
um

2638
01:29:21,189 --> 01:29:19,360
you know they're very interesting

2639
01:29:22,629 --> 01:29:21,199
difficult questions

2640
01:29:25,669 --> 01:29:22,639
um

2641
01:29:26,950 --> 01:29:25,679
and unless we understand

2642
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:26,960
i think there's two ways of going about

2643
01:29:30,310 --> 01:29:28,639
it one would be to say oh you've got a

2644
01:29:32,149 --> 01:29:30,320
closed mind and you're you're you're

2645
01:29:33,510 --> 01:29:32,159
you're you're a biologist and you're

2646
01:29:35,430 --> 01:29:33,520
thinking about carbon and you're

2647
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:35,440
thinking about cells and you know open

2648
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:36,960
your mind and be

2649
01:29:39,270 --> 01:29:37,679
be

2650
01:29:41,830 --> 01:29:39,280
you know

2651
01:29:43,910 --> 01:29:41,840
open to other possibilities

2652
01:29:45,669 --> 01:29:43,920
yeah and and the other way of seeing it

2653
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:45,679
is to say well i don't know does life

2654
01:29:49,590 --> 01:29:47,679
have to be these things we know the only

2655
01:29:51,270 --> 01:29:49,600
example of life we know is life here on

2656
01:29:53,270 --> 01:29:51,280
earth and we know that it's carbon-based

2657
01:29:56,629 --> 01:29:53,280
we know that it's cellular we know it

2658
01:29:58,629 --> 01:29:56,639
thrives in water um so did it have to be

2659
01:30:00,310 --> 01:29:58,639
that way or could it have taken a

2660
01:30:02,310 --> 01:30:00,320
different turn or could we you know if

2661
01:30:03,990 --> 01:30:02,320
we understand why life is carbon-based

2662
01:30:05,590 --> 01:30:04,000
then we can begin to say well life has

2663
01:30:08,550 --> 01:30:05,600
to be carbon-based or no it doesn't have

2664
01:30:11,189 --> 01:30:08,560
to be carbon-based or or some spectrum

2665
01:30:12,550 --> 01:30:11,199
in between um

2666
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:12,560
and

2667
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:17,510
physicists will very often

2668
01:30:23,590 --> 01:30:21,679
by temperament and by training split off

2669
01:30:24,870 --> 01:30:23,600
from biologists because physicists will

2670
01:30:26,390 --> 01:30:24,880
want to see

2671
01:30:27,830 --> 01:30:26,400
the universe

2672
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:27,840
as

2673
01:30:33,590 --> 01:30:30,560
almost infinite possibilities with a

2674
01:30:36,070 --> 01:30:33,600
very small number of laws governing it

2675
01:30:37,669 --> 01:30:36,080
and a biologist will want to see

2676
01:30:38,629 --> 01:30:37,679
study the example that we have in front

2677
01:30:40,709 --> 01:30:38,639
of us

2678
01:30:42,629 --> 01:30:40,719
realize there are no laws but there are

2679
01:30:45,669 --> 01:30:42,639
some principles that guide us that you

2680
01:30:48,470 --> 01:30:45,679
know there are no laws in biology um and

2681
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,480
so it's fuzzy and it's it's uh it's

2682
01:30:51,590 --> 01:30:50,159
immediately irritating for any

2683
01:30:53,270 --> 01:30:51,600
self-respecting physicist but that

2684
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:53,280
doesn't mean to say that there isn't

2685
01:30:56,870 --> 01:30:55,199
something to understand from life on

2686
01:30:59,750 --> 01:30:56,880
earth as we know it and there's you know

2687
01:31:00,550 --> 01:30:59,760
the the origin of life field

2688
01:31:04,229 --> 01:31:00,560
has

2689
01:31:06,070 --> 01:31:04,239
in a strange way almost try to ignore

2690
01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:06,080
what life actually is

2691
01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:08,320
that we know about and and and and to my

2692
01:31:11,110 --> 01:31:09,760
mind

2693
01:31:13,350 --> 01:31:11,120
it it

2694
01:31:14,830 --> 01:31:13,360
if we were to find life on a thousand

2695
01:31:17,590 --> 01:31:14,840
different

2696
01:31:18,470 --> 01:31:17,600
planets throughout the

2697
01:31:23,430 --> 01:31:18,480
through

2698
01:31:26,149 --> 01:31:23,440
the milky way or something um

2699
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:26,159
then just because carbon is so good at

2700
01:31:29,830 --> 01:31:27,760
the chemistry that it does because it's

2701
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:29,840
so abundant it's one of the most

2702
01:31:33,669 --> 01:31:31,520
abundant

2703
01:31:36,229 --> 01:31:33,679
elements in the in the universe it it

2704
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:36,239
it's really good at producing molecules

2705
01:31:40,629 --> 01:31:38,320
that are quite large water is also

2706
01:31:42,149 --> 01:31:40,639
extremely abundant and it does very

2707
01:31:44,390 --> 01:31:42,159
interesting things with organic

2708
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:44,400
molecules you can have membranes that

2709
01:31:47,590 --> 01:31:45,679
are not soluble and you can have

2710
01:31:50,629 --> 01:31:47,600
proteins that are soluble you know

2711
01:31:52,790 --> 01:31:50,639
there's a wealth of possibilities there

2712
01:31:54,790 --> 01:31:52,800
so you you take into consideration the

2713
01:31:56,149 --> 01:31:54,800
abundance and how good it is at doing

2714
01:31:57,669 --> 01:31:56,159
this chemistry and then you think well

2715
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:57,679
you know is there an important

2716
01:32:02,390 --> 01:31:59,520
distinction between an outside and an

2717
01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:02,400
inside do you need a compartment

2718
01:32:05,910 --> 01:32:03,840
and if if you're going to keep your

2719
01:32:07,990 --> 01:32:05,920
inside different to your outside

2720
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:08,000
stuff has to come and go does that give

2721
01:32:12,709 --> 01:32:10,800
of size are there constraints on how

2722
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:12,719
large something can be and how active it

2723
01:32:16,629 --> 01:32:14,480
can obviously there are you don't need

2724
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:16,639
to really understand exactly what

2725
01:32:19,990 --> 01:32:18,719
governs those constraints but

2726
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:20,000
plainly there's a difference between an

2727
01:32:23,830 --> 01:32:21,600
inside and outside and before you know

2728
01:32:25,350 --> 01:32:23,840
it you've argued that life is likely to

2729
01:32:27,669 --> 01:32:25,360
be carbon-based and likely to be

2730
01:32:30,470 --> 01:32:27,679
cellular and likely to be on a planet

2731
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:30,480
with water and so on and maybe there are

2732
01:32:34,709 --> 01:32:33,120
other ways of doing it but 995 times out

2733
01:32:35,990 --> 01:32:34,719
of a thousand is going to be a bit like

2734
01:32:37,510 --> 01:32:36,000
this

2735
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:37,520
so let's talk about life on other

2736
01:32:42,070 --> 01:32:39,840
planets potential life an interesting

2737
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:42,080
phrase that people say when they speak

2738
01:32:45,350 --> 01:32:43,679
about life is life as we know it i

2739
01:32:46,629 --> 01:32:45,360
always found it to be interesting life

2740
01:32:48,709 --> 01:32:46,639
as we know it

2741
01:32:50,470 --> 01:32:48,719
because again like coming from math you

2742
01:32:52,070 --> 01:32:50,480
just have the definitions you just say

2743
01:32:54,310 --> 01:32:52,080
here are the necessary and sufficient

2744
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:54,320
conditions and then that's it to say

2745
01:32:58,950 --> 01:32:57,360
some so and so as we know it

2746
01:33:00,870 --> 01:32:58,960
implies that there could be something

2747
01:33:02,550 --> 01:33:00,880
else why by what

2748
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:02,560
we have to call that life it's as if we

2749
01:33:05,590 --> 01:33:03,920
have an intuitive feeling as to what

2750
01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:05,600
life is and we point to certain examples

2751
01:33:09,430 --> 01:33:06,880
and say this is living this is not

2752
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:09,440
living we haven't quite captured it with

2753
01:33:13,189 --> 01:33:11,520
our explicit language but it's there

2754
01:33:15,270 --> 01:33:13,199
implicitly that's the only way that i

2755
01:33:16,470 --> 01:33:15,280
can make sense of life as we know it but

2756
01:33:18,790 --> 01:33:16,480
i mean i think that i think there's an

2757
01:33:20,149 --> 01:33:18,800
emotional charge to that phrase life as

2758
01:33:21,990 --> 01:33:20,159
we know it says

2759
01:33:23,669 --> 01:33:22,000
out there there is life as we don't know

2760
01:33:25,990 --> 01:33:23,679
it or there may be life as we don't know

2761
01:33:28,790 --> 01:33:26,000
it and and our little limited experience

2762
01:33:30,790 --> 01:33:28,800
is really just a tiny kind of bit of the

2763
01:33:33,350 --> 01:33:30,800
possible universal possibilities i i

2764
01:33:34,629 --> 01:33:33,360
think we we all as human beings thrill

2765
01:33:35,590 --> 01:33:34,639
to the idea that there could be

2766
01:33:38,310 --> 01:33:35,600
something

2767
01:33:40,070 --> 01:33:38,320
majestic out there life as we don't know

2768
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:40,080
it something much bigger than the human

2769
01:33:44,709 --> 01:33:41,920
mind to consider and you know god would

2770
01:33:46,229 --> 01:33:44,719
probably fall into that category but

2771
01:33:47,910 --> 01:33:46,239
um

2772
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:47,920
but that's kind of make-believe in some

2773
01:33:51,270 --> 01:33:49,360
sense

2774
01:33:53,110 --> 01:33:51,280
because it it it doesn't ask the

2775
01:33:53,990 --> 01:33:53,120
question so so

2776
01:33:57,510 --> 01:33:54,000
what

2777
01:33:59,830 --> 01:33:57,520
are the principles that govern life as

2778
01:34:01,830 --> 01:33:59,840
we know it and and are they binding

2779
01:34:04,310 --> 01:34:01,840
principles or are they

2780
01:34:07,110 --> 01:34:04,320
uh loose and could it be many other

2781
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:07,120
different kinds of ways and you know

2782
01:34:10,229 --> 01:34:08,239
it's

2783
01:34:12,629 --> 01:34:10,239
i think one of the most powerful ideas

2784
01:34:15,189 --> 01:34:12,639
in biology is is natural selection and

2785
01:34:16,550 --> 01:34:15,199
and again a lot of physicists have a

2786
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:16,560
problem with natural selection because

2787
01:34:21,030 --> 01:34:18,960
it's just so damn simple and easy and

2788
01:34:23,430 --> 01:34:21,040
it's hard to believe that

2789
01:34:25,270 --> 01:34:23,440
that something as trivial as that can be

2790
01:34:26,709 --> 01:34:25,280
as profound as that

2791
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:26,719
um

2792
01:34:30,830 --> 01:34:29,280
but but it's it's becomes amazingly

2793
01:34:34,070 --> 01:34:30,840
complex it

2794
01:34:36,629 --> 01:34:34,080
becomes the stuff that

2795
01:34:39,669 --> 01:34:36,639
that can be explained by by

2796
01:34:41,110 --> 01:34:39,679
by how selection works is genuinely

2797
01:34:43,430 --> 01:34:41,120
astonishing

2798
01:34:44,870 --> 01:34:43,440
it's so rich as an idea you know i mean

2799
01:34:46,709 --> 01:34:44,880
you're talking about ideas in physics

2800
01:34:48,470 --> 01:34:46,719
that the the fewer parameters you can

2801
01:34:51,110 --> 01:34:48,480
boil it down to i mean natural selection

2802
01:34:54,070 --> 01:34:51,120
gets it down to very few parameters uh

2803
01:34:55,189 --> 01:34:54,080
with enormous possibilities and reach

2804
01:34:55,990 --> 01:34:55,199
um

2805
01:34:57,910 --> 01:34:56,000
and

2806
01:34:59,910 --> 01:34:57,920
biology as a discipline has spent you

2807
01:35:01,750 --> 01:34:59,920
know 100 years or more thinking about

2808
01:35:03,430 --> 01:35:01,760
well how does selection actually work

2809
01:35:05,990 --> 01:35:03,440
what are the units of selection is

2810
01:35:07,669 --> 01:35:06,000
acting on genes on cells on organisms on

2811
01:35:10,629 --> 01:35:07,679
groups and so on

2812
01:35:14,709 --> 01:35:10,639
and i would say we we have a fairly

2813
01:35:18,629 --> 01:35:14,719
decent understanding of a lot of it um

2814
01:35:23,189 --> 01:35:18,639
and it's it's um you know

2815
01:35:28,229 --> 01:35:25,430
it's capable of amazing feats but the

2816
01:35:30,790 --> 01:35:28,239
actual processes underlying it are are

2817
01:35:32,310 --> 01:35:30,800
quite simple and rely in in the end on

2818
01:35:33,590 --> 01:35:32,320
forms of copying

2819
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:33,600
and richard dawkins has talked about

2820
01:35:38,229 --> 01:35:36,000
memes and so on and and yes they they

2821
01:35:40,709 --> 01:35:38,239
can copy and cultural cultural evolution

2822
01:35:43,189 --> 01:35:40,719
can happen but it requires the units of

2823
01:35:44,709 --> 01:35:43,199
living people underneath it with a

2824
01:35:46,390 --> 01:35:44,719
central nervous system which is capable

2825
01:35:48,310 --> 01:35:46,400
of propagating a meme and so on or a

2826
01:35:49,830 --> 01:35:48,320
computer which is capable of

2827
01:35:52,629 --> 01:35:49,840
in the end making copies of itself so

2828
01:35:54,149 --> 01:35:52,639
you know ai can come alive i have no

2829
01:35:56,470 --> 01:35:54,159
no real

2830
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:56,480
doubt about that but i don't think that

2831
01:36:00,950 --> 01:35:57,840
a planet

2832
01:36:02,950 --> 01:36:00,960
can bootstrap itself up from nothing

2833
01:36:05,350 --> 01:36:02,960
to give ai kind of without without the

2834
01:36:08,629 --> 01:36:05,360
intermediary of humans along the way

2835
01:36:09,510 --> 01:36:08,639
or or at least complex animals capable

2836
01:36:12,629 --> 01:36:09,520
of

2837
01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:12,639
because i don't think that silicon

2838
01:36:16,229 --> 01:36:15,280
as a tool is ever going to get beyond

2839
01:36:18,790 --> 01:36:16,239
sand

2840
01:36:20,149 --> 01:36:18,800
uh on a planetary scale carbon is so

2841
01:36:21,990 --> 01:36:20,159
much better at what it does it may be

2842
01:36:23,830 --> 01:36:22,000
limited compared to silicon in the end

2843
01:36:25,990 --> 01:36:23,840
in terms of processing power but but in

2844
01:36:27,990 --> 01:36:26,000
terms of how do you start you know what

2845
01:36:29,830 --> 01:36:28,000
you have with with carbon is a lego

2846
01:36:31,030 --> 01:36:29,840
brick you have co2 it sits there in the

2847
01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:31,040
atmosphere you pluck it out of the

2848
01:36:34,629 --> 01:36:32,800
atmosphere and you build your amazing

2849
01:36:37,910 --> 01:36:34,639
lego kits which is life

2850
01:36:39,430 --> 01:36:37,920
um and and with silicon or something

2851
01:36:41,590 --> 01:36:39,440
you're dealing with a pile of sand it

2852
01:36:43,830 --> 01:36:41,600
just it doesn't work at the same level

2853
01:36:45,750 --> 01:36:43,840
we can fashion it so that it works his

2854
01:36:47,830 --> 01:36:45,760
life but it's never going to come alive

2855
01:36:49,350 --> 01:36:47,840
by itself

2856
01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:49,360
when i was younger and i was watching

2857
01:36:53,109 --> 01:36:51,119
the discovery channel

2858
01:36:54,790 --> 01:36:53,119
there was i remember hearing this phrase

2859
01:36:56,629 --> 01:36:54,800
that hey if life exists on other planets

2860
01:36:58,310 --> 01:36:56,639
maybe it's silicon based because silicon

2861
01:37:00,470 --> 01:36:58,320
serves the same purpose as carbon i

2862
01:37:01,910 --> 01:37:00,480
don't know i was too young to understand

2863
01:37:03,430 --> 01:37:01,920
what that meant and i haven't followed

2864
01:37:05,270 --> 01:37:03,440
up on that since you just reminded me of

2865
01:37:07,910 --> 01:37:05,280
it right now so is that indeed true or

2866
01:37:09,430 --> 01:37:07,920
not that silicon is just as versatile no

2867
01:37:11,270 --> 01:37:09,440
it's not nearly as versatile and that's

2868
01:37:12,790 --> 01:37:11,280
the problem i mean carbon forms much

2869
01:37:15,030 --> 01:37:12,800
stronger bonds

2870
01:37:16,870 --> 01:37:15,040
than silicon does it's capable of

2871
01:37:18,550 --> 01:37:16,880
forming much more interesting molecules

2872
01:37:20,470 --> 01:37:18,560
than silicon ever can

2873
01:37:22,310 --> 01:37:20,480
uh and silicon for the most part forms

2874
01:37:23,189 --> 01:37:22,320
silicon oxides which are

2875
01:37:25,590 --> 01:37:23,199
sand

2876
01:37:28,310 --> 01:37:25,600
um and and they're basically giant macro

2877
01:37:30,149 --> 01:37:28,320
molecules that a single grain of sand is

2878
01:37:31,750 --> 01:37:30,159
an enormous number of atoms in it and

2879
01:37:34,470 --> 01:37:31,760
it's just a repeating pattern of those

2880
01:37:37,109 --> 01:37:34,480
atoms it's a it's a giant crystal it's

2881
01:37:38,709 --> 01:37:37,119
not a building block a single co2 is a

2882
01:37:41,669 --> 01:37:38,719
building block you you know it's it's

2883
01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:41,679
like a brick um it's your lego brick

2884
01:37:43,750 --> 01:37:42,880
whereas

2885
01:37:45,189 --> 01:37:43,760
uh

2886
01:37:47,189 --> 01:37:45,199
you know i suppose trying to build from

2887
01:37:49,830 --> 01:37:47,199
silicon would be like trying to build

2888
01:37:51,750 --> 01:37:49,840
from enormous piles of lego and try to

2889
01:37:54,470 --> 01:37:51,760
put two piles together and fashion it

2890
01:37:55,990 --> 01:37:54,480
into some kind of unit

2891
01:37:58,629 --> 01:37:56,000
i recall you saying that the fact that

2892
01:38:00,709 --> 01:37:58,639
bacteria are limited in size on earth at

2893
01:38:02,629 --> 01:38:00,719
least has some implication for life in

2894
01:38:04,870 --> 01:38:02,639
the universe i don't remember the line

2895
01:38:07,189 --> 01:38:04,880
of reasoning so please if you know what

2896
01:38:10,149 --> 01:38:07,199
i'm referring to can you expound on that

2897
01:38:12,709 --> 01:38:10,159
yes i mean it's really an observation

2898
01:38:14,229 --> 01:38:12,719
on earth that bacteria are they're not

2899
01:38:15,750 --> 01:38:14,239
always tiny

2900
01:38:17,669 --> 01:38:15,760
but they're mostly to a first

2901
01:38:20,070 --> 01:38:17,679
approximation they're small they're

2902
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:20,080
they're a couple of micrometers long and

2903
01:38:23,990 --> 01:38:22,080
and that that's that's that's it

2904
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:24,000
um and when you look at them under a

2905
01:38:27,270 --> 01:38:25,760
conventional microscope you don't see

2906
01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:27,280
very much going on

2907
01:38:29,910 --> 01:38:28,080
um

2908
01:38:31,750 --> 01:38:29,920
now in terms of their biochemistry in

2909
01:38:33,109 --> 01:38:31,760
terms of the molecular machines and all

2910
01:38:36,229 --> 01:38:33,119
of these things they're enormously

2911
01:38:37,910 --> 01:38:36,239
sophisticated in terms of their

2912
01:38:40,390 --> 01:38:37,920
genomes they've got a different

2913
01:38:42,070 --> 01:38:40,400
structure to their genome so a single e

2914
01:38:44,629 --> 01:38:42,080
coli cell

2915
01:38:46,470 --> 01:38:44,639
might have about 4 000 genes and we have

2916
01:38:48,950 --> 01:38:46,480
about 20 000 genes

2917
01:38:51,430 --> 01:38:48,960
but an e coli has what's called a

2918
01:38:53,189 --> 01:38:51,440
metagenome which is to say other e coli

2919
01:38:54,950 --> 01:38:53,199
have different genomes and they swap

2920
01:38:57,109 --> 01:38:54,960
genes among themselves so an e coli

2921
01:38:59,030 --> 01:38:57,119
might have a kind of access to a genome

2922
01:39:02,390 --> 01:38:59,040
with 30 000 genes

2923
01:39:04,790 --> 01:39:02,400
which gives it a lot more scope for

2924
01:39:05,750 --> 01:39:04,800
changing for evolving for for switching

2925
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:05,760
about

2926
01:39:08,950 --> 01:39:06,719
um

2927
01:39:10,709 --> 01:39:08,960
but it means that no two e coli are

2928
01:39:13,189 --> 01:39:10,719
exactly identical to each other and they

2929
01:39:14,870 --> 01:39:13,199
all have a small genome and and that

2930
01:39:16,629 --> 01:39:14,880
tends to mean that if you try and build

2931
01:39:18,310 --> 01:39:16,639
a multicellular organism from cells

2932
01:39:19,109 --> 01:39:18,320
which are genetically different to each

2933
01:39:20,870 --> 01:39:19,119
other

2934
01:39:23,590 --> 01:39:20,880
then what you end up with is a you know

2935
01:39:25,430 --> 01:39:23,600
a fight basically that would put fights

2936
01:39:27,510 --> 01:39:25,440
between different human groups were

2937
01:39:28,629 --> 01:39:27,520
basically genetically close to identical

2938
01:39:30,390 --> 01:39:28,639
to each other

2939
01:39:32,629 --> 01:39:30,400
um in the shade you know what we're

2940
01:39:34,070 --> 01:39:32,639
dealing with cells that are you know

2941
01:39:35,910 --> 01:39:34,080
utterly different to each other more

2942
01:39:38,390 --> 01:39:35,920
difference between two e coli cells and

2943
01:39:41,669 --> 01:39:38,400
the entire vertebrate kingdom

2944
01:39:43,189 --> 01:39:41,679
um interesting it's yeah it's it's huge

2945
01:39:43,910 --> 01:39:43,199
differences you you put them together

2946
01:39:45,590 --> 01:39:43,920
and

2947
01:39:47,669 --> 01:39:45,600
you're never going to make

2948
01:39:49,510 --> 01:39:47,679
anything as complex as a flea out of

2949
01:39:51,430 --> 01:39:49,520
bacterial cells because they don't have

2950
01:39:53,590 --> 01:39:51,440
a large enough genome what we do is we

2951
01:39:54,870 --> 01:39:53,600
have a large genome and we switch these

2952
01:39:56,550 --> 01:39:54,880
genes on in the brain and we switch

2953
01:39:58,790 --> 01:39:56,560
those genes on in the kidneys and these

2954
01:40:00,470 --> 01:39:58,800
genes in the in in the heart and so on

2955
01:40:02,550 --> 01:40:00,480
we're all genetically identical but we

2956
01:40:05,430 --> 01:40:02,560
switch off different genes in different

2957
01:40:07,189 --> 01:40:05,440
that now to get a genome that's that big

2958
01:40:09,590 --> 01:40:07,199
requires i think

2959
01:40:11,030 --> 01:40:09,600
the kind of radical restructuring of

2960
01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:11,040
genomes

2961
01:40:16,070 --> 01:40:13,199
and the reason for that is that

2962
01:40:17,990 --> 01:40:16,080
any giant bacteria that we see and there

2963
01:40:19,430 --> 01:40:18,000
are a few around they always have

2964
01:40:21,750 --> 01:40:19,440
thousands of copies of their complete

2965
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:21,760
genome dotted right next to the membrane

2966
01:40:24,229 --> 01:40:22,960
and it seems that they're there because

2967
01:40:27,030 --> 01:40:24,239
they they need to control this

2968
01:40:28,070 --> 01:40:27,040
electrical charge on the membrane

2969
01:40:31,669 --> 01:40:28,080
which is

2970
01:40:33,430 --> 01:40:31,679
is is responsible for consciousness but

2971
01:40:35,590 --> 01:40:33,440
it's responsible for driving co2

2972
01:40:38,470 --> 01:40:35,600
fixation and for making energy the

2973
01:40:40,790 --> 01:40:38,480
currency the the atp currency of life

2974
01:40:42,870 --> 01:40:40,800
and so on it's it's used for

2975
01:40:45,030 --> 01:40:42,880
pretty much everything and it's a charge

2976
01:40:46,629 --> 01:40:45,040
which is enormously strong so if you

2977
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:46,639
shrink yourself down to a size of a

2978
01:40:50,709 --> 01:40:48,800
molecule again and

2979
01:40:52,070 --> 01:40:50,719
the electrical field strength that you

2980
01:40:54,629 --> 01:40:52,080
would experience if you're sitting next

2981
01:40:56,709 --> 01:40:54,639
to that membrane is 30 million volts per

2982
01:40:57,910 --> 01:40:56,719
meter which is equivalent to a bolt of

2983
01:40:59,669 --> 01:40:57,920
lightning

2984
01:41:01,990 --> 01:40:59,679
so we're dealing with a membrane which

2985
01:41:04,709 --> 01:41:02,000
is five millionths of a meter thick five

2986
01:41:06,790 --> 01:41:04,719
nanometers thick um

2987
01:41:07,669 --> 01:41:06,800
five millionths of a millimeter sorry

2988
01:41:11,430 --> 01:41:07,679
thick

2989
01:41:12,870 --> 01:41:11,440
um so 10 to the minus nine of a meter um

2990
01:41:18,229 --> 01:41:12,880
so

2991
01:41:19,669 --> 01:41:18,239
across it is about 100 millivolts or 150

2992
01:41:21,590 --> 01:41:19,679
millivolts or something like that and

2993
01:41:23,270 --> 01:41:21,600
any but it but as a field strength

2994
01:41:25,750 --> 01:41:23,280
that's very high

2995
01:41:27,510 --> 01:41:25,760
you need genes to control that they need

2996
01:41:29,350 --> 01:41:27,520
to be next to it and the problem with

2997
01:41:31,189 --> 01:41:29,360
bacteria is if they try and just expand

2998
01:41:33,030 --> 01:41:31,199
up you end up with this enormous cost of

2999
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:33,040
having all of these genomes sitting next

3000
01:41:37,669 --> 01:41:36,000
to that now what we have with

3001
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:37,679
mitochondria

3002
01:41:39,990 --> 01:41:38,639
we have

3003
01:41:41,830 --> 01:41:40,000
the same what's called extreme

3004
01:41:43,350 --> 01:41:41,840
polyploidy we've got thousands of copies

3005
01:41:45,830 --> 01:41:43,360
of the mitochondrial genome but they've

3006
01:41:46,950 --> 01:41:45,840
been whittled down to almost nothing

3007
01:41:49,910 --> 01:41:46,960
there's only

3008
01:41:50,790 --> 01:41:49,920
um i mean there's that there's

3009
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:50,800
i think

3010
01:41:55,030 --> 01:41:51,840
uh

3011
01:41:57,109 --> 01:41:55,040
38 genes in in the mitochondria

3012
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:57,119
left in in humans

3013
01:42:01,350 --> 01:41:59,679
and they only are encoding the machinery

3014
01:42:03,030 --> 01:42:01,360
and the proteins that are doing

3015
01:42:05,590 --> 01:42:03,040
respiration that's it so they're

3016
01:42:08,310 --> 01:42:05,600
basically you could think of them as

3017
01:42:10,629 --> 01:42:08,320
the same power as a bacterium to to to

3018
01:42:12,390 --> 01:42:10,639
to generate energy but without all the

3019
01:42:14,070 --> 01:42:12,400
overhead costs that a normal bacterium

3020
01:42:17,189 --> 01:42:14,080
would have so we've got multi-bacterial

3021
01:42:19,350 --> 01:42:17,199
power like multi-horsepower or something

3022
01:42:22,229 --> 01:42:19,360
and what that allows us is to have a

3023
01:42:24,470 --> 01:42:22,239
swollen nuclear genome with with 20 000

3024
01:42:26,950 --> 01:42:24,480
genes and lots of regulatory capacity

3025
01:42:28,950 --> 01:42:26,960
and lots of energy for expressing those

3026
01:42:30,310 --> 01:42:28,960
genes so that we we can make tens of

3027
01:42:31,750 --> 01:42:30,320
thousands of copies of the protein

3028
01:42:34,709 --> 01:42:31,760
rather than just a thousand copies or

3029
01:42:36,470 --> 01:42:34,719
something so we we we we can scale up in

3030
01:42:39,669 --> 01:42:36,480
a way that is is basically impossible

3031
01:42:41,590 --> 01:42:39,679
for bacteria and and that came about as

3032
01:42:43,350 --> 01:42:41,600
a result of an endosymbiosis which is to

3033
01:42:45,189 --> 01:42:43,360
say one cell gets inside another cell

3034
01:42:47,510 --> 01:42:45,199
which is pretty rare in itself and it

3035
01:42:49,030 --> 01:42:47,520
has to survive there and you know

3036
01:42:50,149 --> 01:42:49,040
they have to get along

3037
01:42:51,350 --> 01:42:50,159
so the whole

3038
01:42:55,830 --> 01:42:51,360
history

3039
01:42:57,830 --> 01:42:55,840
of um

3040
01:43:00,149 --> 01:42:57,840
antagonism and cooperation and

3041
01:43:02,629 --> 01:43:00,159
eventually overcoming the obstacles and

3042
01:43:05,030 --> 01:43:02,639
the hurdles and and becoming integrated

3043
01:43:06,629 --> 01:43:05,040
as a as a functional unit

3044
01:43:09,189 --> 01:43:06,639
i didn't realize that there were only 38

3045
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:09,199
genes in the mitochondria that sounds so

3046
01:43:12,709 --> 01:43:10,800
tiny

3047
01:43:14,950 --> 01:43:12,719
it's very few and for that reason

3048
01:43:15,910 --> 01:43:14,960
they're they're mostly ignored

3049
01:43:20,950 --> 01:43:15,920
so

3050
01:43:23,030 --> 01:43:20,960
genomes 20 000 genes want to sequence

3051
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:23,040
the genome look to see which genes are

3052
01:43:26,550 --> 01:43:24,800
responsible for diseases

3053
01:43:28,070 --> 01:43:26,560
people do what are called g-wise studies

3054
01:43:30,550 --> 01:43:28,080
which is a genome

3055
01:43:31,270 --> 01:43:30,560
wide association studies so you you look

3056
01:43:33,750 --> 01:43:31,280
for

3057
01:43:35,350 --> 01:43:33,760
this this single letter change here or

3058
01:43:37,109 --> 01:43:35,360
that one there is associated with

3059
01:43:39,030 --> 01:43:37,119
epilepsy or alzheimer's disease or

3060
01:43:40,709 --> 01:43:39,040
whatever it may be and maybe there's

3061
01:43:42,149 --> 01:43:40,719
maybe there's a few hundred of these or

3062
01:43:43,030 --> 01:43:42,159
maybe there's thousands or millions of

3063
01:43:45,109 --> 01:43:43,040
them but

3064
01:43:47,030 --> 01:43:45,119
a few hundred may may kind of crop up

3065
01:43:48,950 --> 01:43:47,040
and say ah people who've got that letter

3066
01:43:50,229 --> 01:43:48,960
changed their slightly higher risk of

3067
01:43:52,550 --> 01:43:50,239
alzheimer's disease and if they've got

3068
01:43:54,550 --> 01:43:52,560
this one as well it's a little bit more

3069
01:43:55,990 --> 01:43:54,560
and people ignore the mitochondria but

3070
01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:56,000
the mitochondria

3071
01:44:00,550 --> 01:43:58,080
what makes us alive this is the

3072
01:44:02,629 --> 01:44:00,560
difference between just information

3073
01:44:05,510 --> 01:44:02,639
and a living system

3074
01:44:06,470 --> 01:44:05,520
where it's growing where it's capable of

3075
01:44:08,709 --> 01:44:06,480
of

3076
01:44:10,149 --> 01:44:08,719
powering all the work that cells need to

3077
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:10,159
do you get anything wrong with those

3078
01:44:13,350 --> 01:44:11,760
genes or they don't work properly with a

3079
01:44:16,070 --> 01:44:13,360
nuclear background and you've

3080
01:44:18,390 --> 01:44:16,080
compromised the entire living system

3081
01:44:20,470 --> 01:44:18,400
so they they are there's not many of

3082
01:44:21,510 --> 01:44:20,480
them but they are the most important

3083
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:21,520
genes

3084
01:44:25,109 --> 01:44:22,800
for

3085
01:44:27,990 --> 01:44:25,119
making us who we are you may say

3086
01:44:30,310 --> 01:44:28,000
for making us alive for for being

3087
01:44:32,070 --> 01:44:30,320
for being here at all and mitochondria

3088
01:44:33,669 --> 01:44:32,080
they have dna or rna

3089
01:44:34,550 --> 01:44:33,679
they have dna

3090
01:44:37,030 --> 01:44:34,560
yeah

3091
01:44:40,790 --> 01:44:37,040
they have rna as well but they they the

3092
01:44:43,830 --> 01:44:42,070
the blob of

3093
01:44:45,669 --> 01:44:43,840
of dna in the nucleus is that called

3094
01:44:46,550 --> 01:44:45,679
nuclear dna

3095
01:44:48,229 --> 01:44:46,560
yes

3096
01:44:50,310 --> 01:44:48,239
okay so there's mitochondrial dna

3097
01:44:52,470 --> 01:44:50,320
there's nucleus and dna yes all right

3098
01:44:54,070 --> 01:44:52,480
all right and they better work together

3099
01:44:55,910 --> 01:44:54,080
right right right i read that there was

3100
01:44:57,590 --> 01:44:55,920
some i in your book that there's some

3101
01:45:00,550 --> 01:44:57,600
compatibility condition between the

3102
01:45:01,750 --> 01:45:00,560
mitochondrial dna and the nuclear dna

3103
01:45:03,669 --> 01:45:01,760
and i think doug wallace was

3104
01:45:06,229 --> 01:45:03,679
investigating this and he took my dna

3105
01:45:07,669 --> 01:45:06,239
and then put into hamster yeah yeah that

3106
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:07,679
was that was quite a long time ago lots

3107
01:45:12,709 --> 01:45:09,760
of people have done i've done similar

3108
01:45:14,229 --> 01:45:12,719
work since then but even within you know

3109
01:45:16,470 --> 01:45:14,239
so so some of my own work is on

3110
01:45:17,750 --> 01:45:16,480
drosophila uh different groups of

3111
01:45:20,310 --> 01:45:17,760
drosophila

3112
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:20,320
um we're all within the same species but

3113
01:45:24,390 --> 01:45:21,840
if you kind of mismatch their

3114
01:45:25,669 --> 01:45:24,400
mitochondrial dna to to the nuclear

3115
01:45:26,550 --> 01:45:25,679
background

3116
01:45:28,070 --> 01:45:26,560
then

3117
01:45:29,990 --> 01:45:28,080
it increases

3118
01:45:31,590 --> 01:45:30,000
the risk of all kind i mean basically

3119
01:45:33,350 --> 01:45:31,600
the rate at which some flies age

3120
01:45:34,229 --> 01:45:33,360
compared to others or how fertile they

3121
01:45:36,550 --> 01:45:34,239
are there's

3122
01:45:38,070 --> 01:45:36,560
various kind of phenotypes and exactly

3123
01:45:40,390 --> 01:45:38,080
the same principles should apply to

3124
01:45:42,709 --> 01:45:40,400
humans as well

3125
01:45:44,149 --> 01:45:42,719
and somehow this is a driving force or

3126
01:45:46,149 --> 01:45:44,159
at least is proposed to be a driving

3127
01:45:48,070 --> 01:45:46,159
force behind speciation and i don't

3128
01:45:49,590 --> 01:45:48,080
recall how that line of

3129
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:49,600
reasoning went

3130
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:51,840
do you know what i'm referring to yes so

3131
01:45:56,870 --> 01:45:54,960
so so the idea and this is uh this is

3132
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:56,880
i won't say it's a speculative idea but

3133
01:46:01,590 --> 01:45:59,199
there's there's not very much evidence

3134
01:46:03,350 --> 01:46:01,600
that it's really true but it's a it's a

3135
01:46:04,550 --> 01:46:03,360
very interesting idea

3136
01:46:05,510 --> 01:46:04,560
um

3137
01:46:08,070 --> 01:46:05,520
so

3138
01:46:09,669 --> 01:46:08,080
in effect if because mitochondrial genes

3139
01:46:11,669 --> 01:46:09,679
evolve much faster

3140
01:46:13,830 --> 01:46:11,679
than genes in the nucleus about 10 times

3141
01:46:15,910 --> 01:46:13,840
faster on average maybe more maybe 50

3142
01:46:16,709 --> 01:46:15,920
times faster we don't actually really

3143
01:46:17,669 --> 01:46:16,719
know

3144
01:46:19,270 --> 01:46:17,679
um

3145
01:46:21,669 --> 01:46:19,280
but they're they're changing very

3146
01:46:24,149 --> 01:46:21,679
quickly now this this selection

3147
01:46:27,109 --> 01:46:24,159
happening in the female germ line so

3148
01:46:29,830 --> 01:46:27,119
whenever um whenever

3149
01:46:33,270 --> 01:46:29,840
new oocytes egg cells are being made

3150
01:46:35,669 --> 01:46:33,280
there's a process of of um

3151
01:46:37,910 --> 01:46:35,679
effectively winnowing out the bad

3152
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:37,920
mitochondria and and and

3153
01:46:42,629 --> 01:46:40,000
bringing the the better mitochondria

3154
01:46:44,390 --> 01:46:42,639
together and an egg cell has as many as

3155
01:46:47,910 --> 01:46:44,400
half a million mitochondria and copies

3156
01:46:50,310 --> 01:46:47,920
of mitochondrial dna in that egg cell

3157
01:46:52,229 --> 01:46:50,320
and they're all as close to a clone as

3158
01:46:53,669 --> 01:46:52,239
it's possible to make them without

3159
01:46:54,870 --> 01:46:53,679
without kind of killing yourself in the

3160
01:46:56,709 --> 01:46:54,880
process

3161
01:46:58,390 --> 01:46:56,719
um

3162
01:46:59,350 --> 01:46:58,400
and these genes are evolving very

3163
01:47:00,310 --> 01:46:59,360
quickly

3164
01:47:01,750 --> 01:47:00,320
and

3165
01:47:03,510 --> 01:47:01,760
can

3166
01:47:04,470 --> 01:47:03,520
effectively fail to interact properly

3167
01:47:06,310 --> 01:47:04,480
with the

3168
01:47:09,750 --> 01:47:06,320
genes in the nucleus so if you imagine

3169
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:09,760
two populations that are diverging and

3170
01:47:13,510 --> 01:47:11,760
you know standard idea of speciation

3171
01:47:15,430 --> 01:47:13,520
there's two there's two populations are

3172
01:47:16,149 --> 01:47:15,440
on different sides of a mountain and

3173
01:47:20,830 --> 01:47:16,159
they

3174
01:47:22,950 --> 01:47:20,840
know thousands of generations or

3175
01:47:24,790 --> 01:47:22,960
something and then and then they come

3176
01:47:26,950 --> 01:47:24,800
back together again and they mix

3177
01:47:28,870 --> 01:47:26,960
and so which genes are going to be

3178
01:47:30,390 --> 01:47:28,880
involved so sometimes they'll intermix

3179
01:47:32,470 --> 01:47:30,400
perfectly well and other times there

3180
01:47:34,709 --> 01:47:32,480
will be um some kind of it's called

3181
01:47:36,629 --> 01:47:34,719
hybrid breakdown basically the the

3182
01:47:39,270 --> 01:47:36,639
offspring which is the the standard

3183
01:47:41,510 --> 01:47:39,280
biological definition of a species is if

3184
01:47:45,270 --> 01:47:41,520
you can't produce viable offspring

3185
01:47:46,870 --> 01:47:45,280
if the offspring of sterile or or

3186
01:47:49,270 --> 01:47:46,880
don't develop properly

3187
01:47:51,669 --> 01:47:49,280
then you've you've got two different

3188
01:47:53,510 --> 01:47:51,679
species very often different species can

3189
01:47:55,189 --> 01:47:53,520
interbreed perfectly well this is a very

3190
01:47:57,830 --> 01:47:55,199
bad definition of a species it's another

3191
01:48:00,950 --> 01:47:57,840
example in biology where where

3192
01:48:03,750 --> 01:48:00,960
there isn't a firm definition

3193
01:48:05,109 --> 01:48:03,760
there's just separate now the genes that

3194
01:48:06,790 --> 01:48:05,119
are evolving the fastest and changing

3195
01:48:08,709 --> 01:48:06,800
the fastest the mitochondrial genes are

3196
01:48:11,910 --> 01:48:08,719
the ones that are most likely

3197
01:48:13,990 --> 01:48:11,920
to cause trouble in those circumstances

3198
01:48:15,350 --> 01:48:14,000
they're the ones most likely to

3199
01:48:17,270 --> 01:48:15,360
not work well with the nuclear

3200
01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:17,280
background of the other population from

3201
01:48:20,870 --> 01:48:19,199
the other side of the mountain

3202
01:48:22,950 --> 01:48:20,880
this is the idea

3203
01:48:25,030 --> 01:48:22,960
um and and so

3204
01:48:26,870 --> 01:48:25,040
incipient speciation may be driven by

3205
01:48:28,950 --> 01:48:26,880
the rate of change of the mitochondria

3206
01:48:30,390 --> 01:48:28,960
which may you know if these guys live in

3207
01:48:32,070 --> 01:48:30,400
a hot climate and these guys live in a

3208
01:48:34,390 --> 01:48:32,080
cold climate then maybe the mitochondria

3209
01:48:36,229 --> 01:48:34,400
are specialized to different tasks and

3210
01:48:38,550 --> 01:48:36,239
that can drive these differences what

3211
01:48:40,310 --> 01:48:38,560
we've found with uh with with fly is

3212
01:48:42,149 --> 01:48:40,320
interestingly enough is

3213
01:48:45,189 --> 01:48:42,159
um

3214
01:48:47,430 --> 01:48:45,199
that the you can end up with 50 or 60

3215
01:48:49,910 --> 01:48:47,440
different letter changes

3216
01:48:50,790 --> 01:48:49,920
in in mitochondrial dna which is quite a

3217
01:48:52,629 --> 01:48:50,800
lot

3218
01:48:55,030 --> 01:48:52,639
um and

3219
01:48:56,390 --> 01:48:55,040
whether or not you have

3220
01:48:57,830 --> 01:48:56,400
observable

3221
01:49:00,070 --> 01:48:57,840
problems

3222
01:49:02,390 --> 01:49:00,080
for example not developing properly or

3223
01:49:03,990 --> 01:49:02,400
aging very quickly or not doesn't depend

3224
01:49:05,669 --> 01:49:04,000
on the number of the differences you

3225
01:49:07,270 --> 01:49:05,679
might expect to be a correlation if

3226
01:49:09,270 --> 01:49:07,280
you've got 50

3227
01:49:10,870 --> 01:49:09,280
50 letters different then then it's more

3228
01:49:13,270 --> 01:49:10,880
likely to go wrong than if you've only

3229
01:49:15,030 --> 01:49:13,280
got five letters different

3230
01:49:17,189 --> 01:49:15,040
and that's not the case what we actually

3231
01:49:18,870 --> 01:49:17,199
find is it's an absolute flat line that

3232
01:49:20,310 --> 01:49:18,880
if you've got five letters or one letter

3233
01:49:22,229 --> 01:49:20,320
difference it can cause some

3234
01:49:23,189 --> 01:49:22,239
catastrophic problems if they're bad

3235
01:49:27,270 --> 01:49:23,199
letters

3236
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:27,280
um then then

3237
01:49:31,350 --> 01:49:29,760
uh it is it you know it can it can be

3238
01:49:32,950 --> 01:49:31,360
catastrophically bad or it can be fine

3239
01:49:34,629 --> 01:49:32,960
there is not necessarily any worse and

3240
01:49:36,790 --> 01:49:34,639
this these are the levels of differences

3241
01:49:37,750 --> 01:49:36,800
that we see across humans as well there

3242
01:49:39,910 --> 01:49:37,760
is no

3243
01:49:41,430 --> 01:49:39,920
you know there is a possibility

3244
01:49:43,350 --> 01:49:41,440
that different

3245
01:49:46,229 --> 01:49:43,360
human races could interbreed and then

3246
01:49:47,990 --> 01:49:46,239
produce produce offspring that were not

3247
01:49:49,750 --> 01:49:48,000
functional no one's ever seen it but

3248
01:49:52,229 --> 01:49:49,760
it's it's a theoretical possibility that

3249
01:49:53,350 --> 01:49:52,239
this work seems to say no way that's not

3250
01:49:55,750 --> 01:49:53,360
going to happen

3251
01:49:57,669 --> 01:49:55,760
because we can see individuals who have

3252
01:49:59,910 --> 01:49:57,679
a problem because there's an unfortunate

3253
01:50:00,950 --> 01:49:59,920
mismatch and incompatibility

3254
01:50:02,629 --> 01:50:00,960
that

3255
01:50:04,790 --> 01:50:02,639
we've always known about these things

3256
01:50:06,790 --> 01:50:04,800
two people just don't work together for

3257
01:50:08,709 --> 01:50:06,800
whatever reason um

3258
01:50:11,109 --> 01:50:08,719
but it's nothing to do with

3259
01:50:13,350 --> 01:50:11,119
with races or with speciation

3260
01:50:14,950 --> 01:50:13,360
once you've got really deep divergence

3261
01:50:16,470 --> 01:50:14,960
say between a mouse and a rat or

3262
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:16,480
something between a chimpanzee and a

3263
01:50:20,229 --> 01:50:18,960
human being then you would see

3264
01:50:22,310 --> 01:50:20,239
then you would see certain now we're

3265
01:50:24,470 --> 01:50:22,320
dealing with thousands of thousands of

3266
01:50:26,229 --> 01:50:24,480
letter changes difference and and then

3267
01:50:28,709 --> 01:50:26,239
you'll begin to see that there really is

3268
01:50:30,070 --> 01:50:28,719
some kind of breakdown but within within

3269
01:50:32,709 --> 01:50:30,080
populations that are basically

3270
01:50:34,790 --> 01:50:32,719
homogeneous as the human populations are

3271
01:50:37,910 --> 01:50:34,800
we don't see those changes how many

3272
01:50:39,830 --> 01:50:37,920
letters make up the mitochondrial dna do

3273
01:50:40,709 --> 01:50:39,840
you know approximately

3274
01:50:43,590 --> 01:50:40,719
um

3275
01:50:45,109 --> 01:50:43,600
it's about eighteen thousand

3276
01:50:46,629 --> 01:50:45,119
eighteen to ten oh wow great great great

3277
01:50:48,709 --> 01:50:46,639
great memory okay and then dna is

3278
01:50:49,750 --> 01:50:48,719
drastically more sorry nuclear dna is

3279
01:50:50,870 --> 01:50:49,760
far more

3280
01:50:53,350 --> 01:50:50,880
oh we're dealing with about three

3281
01:50:54,310 --> 01:50:53,360
billion then okay why is it so strange

3282
01:50:56,149 --> 01:50:54,320
that

3283
01:50:58,629 --> 01:50:56,159
certain mutations so certain letter

3284
01:50:59,830 --> 01:50:58,639
changes in the mitochondrial dna

3285
01:51:01,590 --> 01:50:59,840
produce

3286
01:51:03,189 --> 01:51:01,600
horrible effects but then certain other

3287
01:51:05,109 --> 01:51:03,199
changes don't because that sounds the

3288
01:51:06,950 --> 01:51:05,119
same as nuclear dna and you were saying

3289
01:51:09,189 --> 01:51:06,960
like oh it's so strange one or two

3290
01:51:10,709 --> 01:51:09,199
letters off here but 50 letters well

3291
01:51:13,189 --> 01:51:10,719
that troubled me a lot and i didn't

3292
01:51:15,030 --> 01:51:13,199
understand it it's not what i expected

3293
01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:15,040
um and i actually find it quite welcome

3294
01:51:18,470 --> 01:51:16,480
in a strange way but it took me a long

3295
01:51:20,709 --> 01:51:18,480
time to understand

3296
01:51:22,149 --> 01:51:20,719
why what's going on there

3297
01:51:24,070 --> 01:51:22,159
and and

3298
01:51:25,189 --> 01:51:24,080
i think the reason is that there has to

3299
01:51:27,030 --> 01:51:25,199
be

3300
01:51:28,950 --> 01:51:27,040
quite a lot of tolerance

3301
01:51:30,870 --> 01:51:28,960
for different types of mitochondrial

3302
01:51:31,669 --> 01:51:30,880
function

3303
01:51:33,350 --> 01:51:31,679
so

3304
01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:33,360
women and men are different

3305
01:51:39,430 --> 01:51:35,360
in in in

3306
01:51:41,830 --> 01:51:39,440
in in dietary needs in in outputs of one

3307
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:41,840
sort or another in metabolic rate

3308
01:51:46,709 --> 01:51:43,760
on average men have about 20 percent

3309
01:51:47,990 --> 01:51:46,719
higher metabolic rate than women do

3310
01:51:49,270 --> 01:51:48,000
so there are all these there are all

3311
01:51:51,030 --> 01:51:49,280
these differences and and the

3312
01:51:52,629 --> 01:51:51,040
mitochondria we inherit them from our

3313
01:51:56,149 --> 01:51:52,639
mothers only

3314
01:51:57,830 --> 01:51:56,159
um and that means in principle that they

3315
01:52:00,470 --> 01:51:57,840
adapt to being

3316
01:52:01,669 --> 01:52:00,480
in in in the female line

3317
01:52:03,270 --> 01:52:01,679
and

3318
01:52:04,709 --> 01:52:03,280
you know your mitochondria my

3319
01:52:06,149 --> 01:52:04,719
mitochondria they're going nowhere if

3320
01:52:07,510 --> 01:52:06,159
you have kids then then they're not

3321
01:52:09,350 --> 01:52:07,520
going to get your mitochondria your

3322
01:52:11,350 --> 01:52:09,360
mitochondria you're going in the bin

3323
01:52:14,310 --> 01:52:11,360
um and that means that

3324
01:52:15,430 --> 01:52:14,320
they can never really be fashioned to

3325
01:52:18,229 --> 01:52:15,440
work

3326
01:52:21,109 --> 01:52:18,239
to be adapted to being in men

3327
01:52:22,149 --> 01:52:21,119
um now the nuclear background can kind

3328
01:52:24,310 --> 01:52:22,159
of

3329
01:52:26,629 --> 01:52:24,320
fashion them to work in men

3330
01:52:28,709 --> 01:52:26,639
and the y chromosome for example can you

3331
01:52:30,790 --> 01:52:28,719
know can control genes that up regulates

3332
01:52:32,709 --> 01:52:30,800
those that make female mitochondria

3333
01:52:33,750 --> 01:52:32,719
effectively work better in men

3334
01:52:35,510 --> 01:52:33,760
um

3335
01:52:38,390 --> 01:52:35,520
so there's there are biological ways

3336
01:52:39,430 --> 01:52:38,400
around this but the bottom line is

3337
01:52:41,510 --> 01:52:39,440
um

3338
01:52:43,990 --> 01:52:41,520
there are different requirements on the

3339
01:52:46,229 --> 01:52:44,000
system in men and women but there are

3340
01:52:47,109 --> 01:52:46,239
different requirements as well depending

3341
01:52:49,510 --> 01:52:47,119
on

3342
01:52:51,030 --> 01:52:49,520
is it in the brain where

3343
01:52:53,109 --> 01:52:51,040
the genes that are expressed in the

3344
01:52:54,629 --> 01:52:53,119
nucleus is a completely different set of

3345
01:52:56,310 --> 01:52:54,639
genes compared to those in the kidney

3346
01:52:57,589 --> 01:52:56,320
where the mitochondria have a different

3347
01:52:58,709 --> 01:52:57,599
task and the same genes in the

3348
01:53:00,070 --> 01:52:58,719
mitochondria have to work with a

3349
01:53:02,790 --> 01:53:00,080
different set of nuclear genes with

3350
01:53:04,629 --> 01:53:02,800
different requirements so they basically

3351
01:53:06,550 --> 01:53:04,639
they've got to be generalists they've

3352
01:53:08,790 --> 01:53:06,560
got to have a lot of

3353
01:53:11,350 --> 01:53:08,800
slack that they can

3354
01:53:13,030 --> 01:53:11,360
operate well enough in completely

3355
01:53:14,229 --> 01:53:13,040
different tissues completely different

3356
01:53:15,589 --> 01:53:14,239
diets

3357
01:53:17,510 --> 01:53:15,599
you know different human groups have

3358
01:53:19,830 --> 01:53:17,520
very different diets and and and

3359
01:53:21,669 --> 01:53:19,840
different different um

3360
01:53:24,070 --> 01:53:21,679
you know

3361
01:53:25,669 --> 01:53:24,080
fat intake or or calorie intake or

3362
01:53:28,070 --> 01:53:25,679
whatever it may be that puts pressures

3363
01:53:30,790 --> 01:53:28,080
on on mitochondrial functions which can

3364
01:53:33,669 --> 01:53:30,800
be very different different temperatures

3365
01:53:35,669 --> 01:53:33,679
um that you're operating at um

3366
01:53:37,189 --> 01:53:35,679
and especially that's even even worse

3367
01:53:38,310 --> 01:53:37,199
with things like flies that are cold

3368
01:53:39,830 --> 01:53:38,320
blooded and if you change the

3369
01:53:41,589 --> 01:53:39,840
temperature then their whole body

3370
01:53:43,350 --> 01:53:41,599
temperature changes

3371
01:53:45,109 --> 01:53:43,360
so so they're basically they have to be

3372
01:53:47,750 --> 01:53:45,119
generalist and that means that they they

3373
01:53:49,910 --> 01:53:47,760
can tolerate a fair amount of of change

3374
01:53:51,830 --> 01:53:49,920
and most of the changes that happen

3375
01:53:55,830 --> 01:53:51,840
um are tolerated

3376
01:53:57,510 --> 01:53:55,840
but some of them are not um and and if

3377
01:54:00,550 --> 01:53:57,520
if you are unlucky enough to have a

3378
01:54:02,870 --> 01:54:00,560
change that is not tolerated then it it

3379
01:54:04,629 --> 01:54:02,880
affects all of the organs it affects

3380
01:54:05,669 --> 01:54:04,639
both the sexes it affects absolutely

3381
01:54:09,430 --> 01:54:05,679
everything

3382
01:54:10,870 --> 01:54:09,440
um and so so then you then you've got a

3383
01:54:12,550 --> 01:54:10,880
problem

3384
01:54:13,990 --> 01:54:12,560
because it's so fundamental just to the

3385
01:54:15,589 --> 01:54:14,000
process of living

3386
01:54:18,709 --> 01:54:15,599
i believe there's a concept called

3387
01:54:20,229 --> 01:54:18,719
mother's curse which is about okay so

3388
01:54:22,550 --> 01:54:20,239
firstly if you don't mind saying what

3389
01:54:24,550 --> 01:54:22,560
that is and then also why can't we

3390
01:54:26,229 --> 01:54:24,560
follow the same logic of mother's curse

3391
01:54:28,550 --> 01:54:26,239
and say that men should have drastically

3392
01:54:30,870 --> 01:54:28,560
shorter lifespans or be

3393
01:54:32,870 --> 01:54:30,880
far worse off i mean maybe this what may

3394
01:54:35,109 --> 01:54:32,880
be a why question well men do how men do

3395
01:54:37,109 --> 01:54:35,119
have shorter life spans

3396
01:54:39,830 --> 01:54:37,119
um by about five or six years i think on

3397
01:54:41,830 --> 01:54:39,840
average something of that order um so

3398
01:54:44,229 --> 01:54:41,840
mother's curse i i've actually kind of

3399
01:54:46,390 --> 01:54:44,239
already described this in a way

3400
01:54:49,270 --> 01:54:46,400
it's it's basically because

3401
01:54:51,669 --> 01:54:49,280
the mitochondria pass down the female

3402
01:54:53,430 --> 01:54:51,679
line so they're inherited from mother to

3403
01:54:56,229 --> 01:54:53,440
daughter to daughter to daughter and so

3404
01:54:57,830 --> 01:54:56,239
on um

3405
01:54:59,830 --> 01:54:57,840
they become

3406
01:55:00,790 --> 01:54:59,840
any any mutation

3407
01:55:01,910 --> 01:55:00,800
which is

3408
01:55:02,790 --> 01:55:01,920
bad

3409
01:55:05,109 --> 01:55:02,800
for

3410
01:55:06,070 --> 01:55:05,119
the daughter

3411
01:55:09,669 --> 01:55:06,080
would

3412
01:55:12,870 --> 01:55:09,679
um be selected against

3413
01:55:16,149 --> 01:55:12,880
whereas any mutation that is is is fine

3414
01:55:17,830 --> 01:55:16,159
for the daughter but bad for the sun

3415
01:55:19,350 --> 01:55:17,840
is not necessarily going to be selected

3416
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:19,360
against because the sun's mitochondria

3417
01:55:21,830 --> 01:55:20,880
are not going anywhere they're a dead

3418
01:55:23,669 --> 01:55:21,840
end

3419
01:55:25,350 --> 01:55:23,679
so there's no direct selection there can

3420
01:55:28,070 --> 01:55:25,360
be indirect selection they can be you

3421
01:55:30,149 --> 01:55:28,080
know if all your sons die then they can

3422
01:55:32,310 --> 01:55:30,159
be you know indirect forms of selection

3423
01:55:34,310 --> 01:55:32,320
but there's no direct selection on them

3424
01:55:36,310 --> 01:55:34,320
and so mutations that are effectively if

3425
01:55:38,070 --> 01:55:36,320
there are differences between females

3426
01:55:39,350 --> 01:55:38,080
and males in metabolic requirements and

3427
01:55:41,910 --> 01:55:39,360
there are

3428
01:55:44,790 --> 01:55:41,920
and and the the mitochondria passed down

3429
01:55:47,750 --> 01:55:44,800
the female line only which they do

3430
01:55:50,629 --> 01:55:47,760
and some mutations may be harmless or

3431
01:55:51,910 --> 01:55:50,639
even beneficial to women but detrimental

3432
01:55:53,750 --> 01:55:51,920
to men

3433
01:55:55,189 --> 01:55:53,760
then selection will select for the ones

3434
01:55:57,990 --> 01:55:55,199
which are harmless or detrimental in

3435
01:55:59,270 --> 01:55:58,000
women and the the harmful ones to men

3436
01:56:01,270 --> 01:55:59,280
will tend to accumulate there's no

3437
01:56:02,950 --> 01:56:01,280
mechanism of selecting against no direct

3438
01:56:05,109 --> 01:56:02,960
mechanism of selecting against them so

3439
01:56:06,149 --> 01:56:05,119
that's mother's curse

3440
01:56:07,910 --> 01:56:06,159
and

3441
01:56:09,910 --> 01:56:07,920
you know a lot of mitochondrial diseases

3442
01:56:12,390 --> 01:56:09,920
for example and you know two or three

3443
01:56:13,510 --> 01:56:12,400
times more common in men than in women

3444
01:56:15,910 --> 01:56:13,520
a lot of diseases that have a

3445
01:56:18,310 --> 01:56:15,920
mitochondrial aspect to them like

3446
01:56:20,870 --> 01:56:18,320
parkinson's disease are twice as common

3447
01:56:23,910 --> 01:56:20,880
in in men than in women

3448
01:56:25,589 --> 01:56:23,920
and men age more quickly and and die

3449
01:56:28,070 --> 01:56:25,599
earlier than women and all of these

3450
01:56:29,589 --> 01:56:28,080
things have a mitochondrial component

3451
01:56:32,229 --> 01:56:29,599
and may be linked in some way to

3452
01:56:34,709 --> 01:56:32,239
mother's curse so it's it's real

3453
01:56:37,430 --> 01:56:34,719
but the i i use the word direct

3454
01:56:39,589 --> 01:56:37,440
selection on several occasions

3455
01:56:41,430 --> 01:56:39,599
the the genes in the nucleus can

3456
01:56:44,470 --> 01:56:41,440
compensate

3457
01:56:46,149 --> 01:56:44,480
and so for the most part

3458
01:56:48,470 --> 01:56:46,159
um most most men don't have

3459
01:56:51,589 --> 01:56:48,480
mitochondrial diseases and and men live

3460
01:56:52,790 --> 01:56:51,599
almost as long as women and and so on so

3461
01:56:54,470 --> 01:56:52,800
mostly

3462
01:56:56,870 --> 01:56:54,480
the the fact that we inherit

3463
01:56:59,109 --> 01:56:56,880
mitochondria that could be riddled with

3464
01:57:00,950 --> 01:56:59,119
mutations that are not good for men

3465
01:57:04,310 --> 01:57:00,960
are compensated for by genes in the

3466
01:57:06,950 --> 01:57:04,320
nucleus that are specifically male which

3467
01:57:08,709 --> 01:57:06,960
effectively offset those disadvantages

3468
01:57:10,790 --> 01:57:08,719
and this is where the problem if you if

3469
01:57:12,950 --> 01:57:10,800
you then um

3470
01:57:14,310 --> 01:57:12,960
if you if you then go and

3471
01:57:16,390 --> 01:57:14,320
breed with a completely different

3472
01:57:18,470 --> 01:57:16,400
population that doesn't have those

3473
01:57:20,390 --> 01:57:18,480
compensating genes in the nucleus that's

3474
01:57:22,310 --> 01:57:20,400
where this speciation effect can

3475
01:57:24,470 --> 01:57:22,320
potentially come in

3476
01:57:25,669 --> 01:57:24,480
and these compensating genes in the

3477
01:57:27,750 --> 01:57:25,679
nucleus

3478
01:57:29,510 --> 01:57:27,760
they don't detrimentally affect women

3479
01:57:33,669 --> 01:57:29,520
are they relegated to the y chromosome

3480
01:57:35,510 --> 01:57:33,679
for example um yes i mean there are

3481
01:57:37,510 --> 01:57:35,520
so so there are you know there

3482
01:57:39,270 --> 01:57:37,520
there are differences in what's called

3483
01:57:40,470 --> 01:57:39,280
gene expression between men and women

3484
01:57:43,109 --> 01:57:40,480
which is to say

3485
01:57:44,950 --> 01:57:43,119
um the y chromosome controls it but

3486
01:57:47,430 --> 01:57:44,960
there's only a handful of genes on the y

3487
01:57:49,430 --> 01:57:47,440
chromosome but those genes

3488
01:57:54,790 --> 01:57:49,440
say you you you

3489
01:57:59,350 --> 01:57:57,910
shut down um and so you know it biology

3490
01:58:01,109 --> 01:57:59,360
is not about which genes you have so

3491
01:58:03,189 --> 01:58:01,119
much as which genes are active now and

3492
01:58:04,149 --> 01:58:03,199
on a specific stage of development and

3493
01:58:06,790 --> 01:58:04,159
so on

3494
01:58:08,310 --> 01:58:06,800
um and and so

3495
01:58:09,589 --> 01:58:08,320
there are

3496
01:58:12,550 --> 01:58:09,599
you know that

3497
01:58:13,990 --> 01:58:12,560
in men the the genes which are expressed

3498
01:58:15,270 --> 01:58:14,000
at a certain time

3499
01:58:16,950 --> 01:58:15,280
uh can be

3500
01:58:19,109 --> 01:58:16,960
very different

3501
01:58:20,149 --> 01:58:19,119
yeah geez it's it's staggering

3502
01:58:21,669 --> 01:58:20,159
staggering

3503
01:58:23,430 --> 01:58:21,679
the complexity does your head in there's

3504
01:58:24,870 --> 01:58:23,440
no question yeah

3505
01:58:26,550 --> 01:58:24,880
so okay now let's talk about what's not

3506
01:58:28,310 --> 01:58:26,560
complex well maybe it's complex but i

3507
01:58:30,310 --> 01:58:28,320
haven't made an analogy between the cell

3508
01:58:32,550 --> 01:58:30,320
and the planet because one is charged on

3509
01:58:33,990 --> 01:58:32,560
the inside and okay can you talk about

3510
01:58:35,750 --> 01:58:34,000
that that's interesting and then i

3511
01:58:37,910 --> 01:58:35,760
wondered how far does that analogy go

3512
01:58:39,589 --> 01:58:37,920
does it go to the galaxy i mean

3513
01:58:42,070 --> 01:58:39,599
yes i mean no i don't think it would go

3514
01:58:43,510 --> 01:58:42,080
to the galaxy level but it um and it is

3515
01:58:46,950 --> 01:58:43,520
an analogy

3516
01:58:50,790 --> 01:58:49,030
i mean i i i i i think you will be

3517
01:58:52,550 --> 01:58:50,800
unwise to take it too far but it's a

3518
01:58:54,629 --> 01:58:52,560
kind of a beautiful analogy and there's

3519
01:58:55,990 --> 01:58:54,639
definitely some truth in it i mean a

3520
01:58:57,669 --> 01:58:56,000
cell

3521
01:58:59,430 --> 01:58:57,679
is in effect

3522
01:59:02,229 --> 01:58:59,440
this electrical charge on the membrane

3523
01:59:03,109 --> 01:59:02,239
that i keep talking about on the inside

3524
01:59:05,189 --> 01:59:03,119
um

3525
01:59:07,669 --> 01:59:05,199
it's basically saturated in electrons

3526
01:59:10,070 --> 01:59:07,679
we've got organic molecules have taken

3527
01:59:11,830 --> 01:59:10,080
co2 and they've added hydrogen on and

3528
01:59:14,310 --> 01:59:11,840
hydrogen is an electron and a proton

3529
01:59:17,030 --> 01:59:14,320
basically um and so

3530
01:59:18,870 --> 01:59:17,040
and so in in making organic molecules

3531
01:59:20,390 --> 01:59:18,880
we've taken electrons from the outside

3532
01:59:22,629 --> 01:59:20,400
and put them inside

3533
01:59:24,470 --> 01:59:22,639
and so it's it's reduced it's more

3534
01:59:26,629 --> 01:59:24,480
reduced inside than it is outside that's

3535
01:59:27,990 --> 01:59:26,639
the technical term and reduced is one of

3536
01:59:29,030 --> 01:59:28,000
those terms that

3537
01:59:30,790 --> 01:59:29,040
you know

3538
01:59:32,709 --> 01:59:30,800
anybody who's not a chemist backs away

3539
01:59:34,070 --> 01:59:32,719
from him immediately just tries to

3540
01:59:37,430 --> 01:59:34,080
escape from the room

3541
01:59:39,189 --> 01:59:37,440
um so oxidized and reduced but

3542
01:59:41,669 --> 01:59:39,199
in effect there's more electrons inside

3543
01:59:42,790 --> 01:59:41,679
than outside okay and and there's more

3544
01:59:45,510 --> 01:59:42,800
protons

3545
01:59:46,709 --> 01:59:45,520
there's more negative insight yes yeah

3546
01:59:49,189 --> 01:59:46,719
um

3547
01:59:50,149 --> 01:59:49,199
and so is relatively positive outside

3548
01:59:52,470 --> 01:59:50,159
and

3549
01:59:53,910 --> 01:59:52,480
there are protons outside that's partly

3550
01:59:57,030 --> 01:59:53,920
what makes it

3551
01:59:58,709 --> 01:59:57,040
more positive outside and we've got this

3552
02:00:00,310 --> 01:59:58,719
we've got this charge on the membrane

3553
02:00:01,990 --> 02:00:00,320
which is basically the is relatively

3554
02:00:03,910 --> 02:00:02,000
positive outside relatively negative

3555
02:00:05,189 --> 02:00:03,920
inside and the membrane itself is

3556
02:00:07,270 --> 02:00:05,199
extremely thin

3557
02:00:09,510 --> 02:00:07,280
uh and so we have a charge on it now the

3558
02:00:10,310 --> 02:00:09,520
planet is basically the same

3559
02:00:14,070 --> 02:00:10,320
um

3560
02:00:16,310 --> 02:00:14,080
iron raw iron is is is electron dense

3561
02:00:18,790 --> 02:00:16,320
you might say most iron that people are

3562
02:00:21,270 --> 02:00:18,800
from when rus when iron rusts it's

3563
02:00:23,189 --> 02:00:21,280
effectively losing electrons to oxygen

3564
02:00:25,510 --> 02:00:23,199
oxygen stripping those electrons from it

3565
02:00:28,149 --> 02:00:25,520
and you end up with with three positive

3566
02:00:29,910 --> 02:00:28,159
charges on the ion the ion atom itself

3567
02:00:31,830 --> 02:00:29,920
ends up with three positive charges and

3568
02:00:33,830 --> 02:00:31,840
the oxygen gets the electrons and that

3569
02:00:35,830 --> 02:00:33,840
has a negative charge and you know you

3570
02:00:37,510 --> 02:00:35,840
have iron hydroxides and oxides and so

3571
02:00:38,310 --> 02:00:37,520
on and that's what rust is

3572
02:00:39,109 --> 02:00:38,320
um

3573
02:00:40,950 --> 02:00:39,119
now

3574
02:00:42,470 --> 02:00:40,960
the core of the planet is not rusty at

3575
02:00:44,390 --> 02:00:42,480
all there's no oxygen down there it's

3576
02:00:46,870 --> 02:00:44,400
got all these electrons sitting on the

3577
02:00:49,030 --> 02:00:46,880
iron um

3578
02:00:52,229 --> 02:00:49,040
and so it's relatively negative inside

3579
02:00:54,950 --> 02:00:52,239
and the outside the the atmosphere and

3580
02:00:57,189 --> 02:00:54,960
the oceans and so on um

3581
02:00:59,350 --> 02:00:57,199
because the gases that are coming from

3582
02:01:01,189 --> 02:00:59,360
volcanoes and so on are such a high

3583
02:01:03,270 --> 02:01:01,199
temperature they tend to have lost their

3584
02:01:05,430 --> 02:01:03,280
electrons and think you can get you get

3585
02:01:07,189 --> 02:01:05,440
gases like carbon dioxide

3586
02:01:09,750 --> 02:01:07,199
uh coming coming out

3587
02:01:11,830 --> 02:01:09,760
and the sun will also tend to oxidize

3588
02:01:13,910 --> 02:01:11,840
the surface the planet will would tend

3589
02:01:15,589 --> 02:01:13,920
to for example you can the sun would

3590
02:01:18,149 --> 02:01:15,599
split water

3591
02:01:20,390 --> 02:01:18,159
water is h2o and it can be split in

3592
02:01:22,070 --> 02:01:20,400
effect into hydrogen and oxygen

3593
02:01:23,030 --> 02:01:22,080
and the hydrogen is light enough to

3594
02:01:24,629 --> 02:01:23,040
escape

3595
02:01:26,950 --> 02:01:24,639
uh into space

3596
02:01:29,430 --> 02:01:26,960
and the oxygen will react with rocks

3597
02:01:30,870 --> 02:01:29,440
like iron and and you get rusty rocks

3598
02:01:32,790 --> 02:01:30,880
and this is more or less what happened

3599
02:01:34,629 --> 02:01:32,800
on mars that's why it's the red planet

3600
02:01:36,310 --> 02:01:34,639
the oxygen that was formed from spitting

3601
02:01:38,070 --> 02:01:36,320
water reacted with iron in the rocks

3602
02:01:40,470 --> 02:01:38,080
turning the rusty red color and the

3603
02:01:43,830 --> 02:01:40,480
hydrogen escape to space a lot of the

3604
02:01:44,709 --> 02:01:43,840
oceans were were lost that way on mars

3605
02:01:46,870 --> 02:01:44,719
um

3606
02:01:48,709 --> 02:01:46,880
and so you end up with an with a kind of

3607
02:01:50,790 --> 02:01:48,719
a relatively positive charge in the

3608
02:01:52,870 --> 02:01:50,800
atmosphere and this relatively negative

3609
02:01:55,510 --> 02:01:52,880
charge inside which is basically the

3610
02:01:59,350 --> 02:01:55,520
same structure as a cell

3611
02:02:01,270 --> 02:01:59,360
and just as a cell membrane has

3612
02:02:02,709 --> 02:02:01,280
proteins that sit in it where you have

3613
02:02:04,470 --> 02:02:02,719
movement between the inside and the

3614
02:02:06,629 --> 02:02:04,480
outside hydrothermal vents are the

3615
02:02:08,390 --> 02:02:06,639
equivalent kind of

3616
02:02:09,430 --> 02:02:08,400
conductance between

3617
02:02:11,589 --> 02:02:09,440
between the

3618
02:02:13,910 --> 02:02:11,599
the the negative charge of the interior

3619
02:02:16,149 --> 02:02:13,920
and the positive charge of the exterior

3620
02:02:17,270 --> 02:02:16,159
uh it's you have movement going through

3621
02:02:18,790 --> 02:02:17,280
through vents

3622
02:02:21,510 --> 02:02:18,800
connecting it up

3623
02:02:23,189 --> 02:02:21,520
and within these vents the pores inside

3624
02:02:24,870 --> 02:02:23,199
the vents have got the same structure as

3625
02:02:26,550 --> 02:02:24,880
well they're effectively inside they're

3626
02:02:28,550 --> 02:02:26,560
filled with the material that came from

3627
02:02:30,310 --> 02:02:28,560
inside the earth and the outside they're

3628
02:02:33,270 --> 02:02:30,320
surrounded by the material that came

3629
02:02:35,030 --> 02:02:33,280
from the from the oceans and so again we

3630
02:02:37,350 --> 02:02:35,040
have a negative charge inside positive

3631
02:02:39,430 --> 02:02:37,360
charge outside relative to each other

3632
02:02:41,350 --> 02:02:39,440
it's not that there's an actual charge

3633
02:02:43,270 --> 02:02:41,360
it's just that there's a

3634
02:02:44,470 --> 02:02:43,280
the electrons want to move from here to

3635
02:02:45,589 --> 02:02:44,480
there

3636
02:02:47,750 --> 02:02:45,599
now do you believe this to be a

3637
02:02:50,470 --> 02:02:47,760
coincidence or that life is somehow

3638
02:02:52,070 --> 02:02:50,480
mimicking cellular life is somehow no i

3639
02:02:53,830 --> 02:02:52,080
i don't think it's a coincidence at all

3640
02:02:54,790 --> 02:02:53,840
i think this is exactly how cells work

3641
02:02:55,510 --> 02:02:54,800
and

3642
02:02:57,510 --> 02:02:55,520
that

3643
02:02:59,189 --> 02:02:57,520
what this is doing is there's

3644
02:03:00,790 --> 02:02:59,199
effectively there's an electrical charge

3645
02:03:02,470 --> 02:03:00,800
on the earth between the inside and the

3646
02:03:04,070 --> 02:03:02,480
outside there's an electrical charge and

3647
02:03:05,109 --> 02:03:04,080
the pores in these hydrothermal vents

3648
02:03:06,550 --> 02:03:05,119
between the inside and the outside

3649
02:03:08,310 --> 02:03:06,560
there's electrical charge on cells

3650
02:03:09,669 --> 02:03:08,320
between the inside and the outside

3651
02:03:12,470 --> 02:03:09,679
they're all

3652
02:03:14,870 --> 02:03:12,480
equivalent topology

3653
02:03:16,790 --> 02:03:14,880
because they've all been formed

3654
02:03:18,870 --> 02:03:16,800
from the same process as you might say

3655
02:03:20,390 --> 02:03:18,880
because the hydrothermal vents is where

3656
02:03:22,390 --> 02:03:20,400
there is the mixing zone between the

3657
02:03:24,790 --> 02:03:22,400
inside and the outside so it naturally

3658
02:03:27,669 --> 02:03:24,800
forms pores where we have this the same

3659
02:03:29,510 --> 02:03:27,679
charges forming and those charges

3660
02:03:31,109 --> 02:03:29,520
are more or less necessary to drive the

3661
02:03:32,950 --> 02:03:31,119
reaction between hydrogen and carbon

3662
02:03:35,270 --> 02:03:32,960
dioxide to make the organic molecules

3663
02:03:37,350 --> 02:03:35,280
that make up life at all

3664
02:03:39,030 --> 02:03:37,360
um so

3665
02:03:40,790 --> 02:03:39,040
i find it a beautiful conception it

3666
02:03:43,030 --> 02:03:40,800
doesn't mean it's true but i find it

3667
02:03:43,990 --> 02:03:43,040
beautiful that the the planet has the

3668
02:03:46,709 --> 02:03:44,000
same

3669
02:03:50,070 --> 02:03:46,719
basic topological structure as a cell

3670
02:03:52,070 --> 02:03:50,080
cells emerged from the the the the the

3671
02:03:55,109 --> 02:03:52,080
mixing zone between the inside and the

3672
02:03:58,149 --> 02:03:55,119
outside effectively part of the circuit

3673
02:04:00,390 --> 02:03:58,159
um and and are driving copies of

3674
02:04:02,070 --> 02:04:00,400
themselves by making more miniature

3675
02:04:02,950 --> 02:04:02,080
earths if you like

3676
02:04:03,750 --> 02:04:02,960
um

3677
02:04:06,149 --> 02:04:03,760
by

3678
02:04:08,229 --> 02:04:06,159
reacting the hydrogen from the inside

3679
02:04:09,750 --> 02:04:08,239
with the co2 from the outside to make

3680
02:04:11,430 --> 02:04:09,760
organic molecules it's a it's a

3681
02:04:12,550 --> 02:04:11,440
planetary scale and it's a beautiful

3682
02:04:14,629 --> 02:04:12,560
conception

3683
02:04:17,669 --> 02:04:14,639
something i love about you is firstly

3684
02:04:19,589 --> 02:04:17,679
you write beautifully and secondly you

3685
02:04:21,109 --> 02:04:19,599
are not afraid to ask why and you

3686
02:04:23,189 --> 02:04:21,119
mentioned this that you're the most

3687
02:04:25,109 --> 02:04:23,199
biologists don't like to ask the why

3688
02:04:26,870 --> 02:04:25,119
question perhaps because it teeters too

3689
02:04:28,550 --> 02:04:26,880
much on the religious side and they

3690
02:04:30,709 --> 02:04:28,560
would like to stay away or for whatever

3691
02:04:32,629 --> 02:04:30,719
reason physicists don't like to as well

3692
02:04:35,270 --> 02:04:32,639
there's a famous or an infamous video of

3693
02:04:36,950 --> 02:04:35,280
feynman who is castigating a fairly at

3694
02:04:39,109 --> 02:04:36,960
least in my opinion well-intentioned

3695
02:04:40,629 --> 02:04:39,119
interviewer for asking a why question

3696
02:04:42,629 --> 02:04:40,639
you recall that

3697
02:04:44,470 --> 02:04:42,639
i don't remember that one no i mean i

3698
02:04:46,149 --> 02:04:44,480
love listening to feinman but yes he

3699
02:04:47,750 --> 02:04:46,159
could castigate people

3700
02:04:49,830 --> 02:04:47,760
i thought it was a perfectly reasonable

3701
02:04:52,629 --> 02:04:49,840
question and feynman said yeah but you

3702
02:04:54,070 --> 02:04:52,639
shouldn't ask why because so and so so

3703
02:04:56,310 --> 02:04:54,080
why is it that you

3704
02:04:57,990 --> 02:04:56,320
don't mind asking why and why and and

3705
02:05:00,629 --> 02:04:58,000
simultaneously why do others not like

3706
02:05:06,950 --> 02:05:01,430
i

3707
02:05:08,149 --> 02:05:06,960
and why

3708
02:05:09,830 --> 02:05:08,159
um

3709
02:05:12,709 --> 02:05:09,840
and i think most biochemists are happy

3710
02:05:15,109 --> 02:05:12,719
asking how how does this system work

3711
02:05:16,390 --> 02:05:15,119
um and i can't quite distinguish that

3712
02:05:19,589 --> 02:05:16,400
from

3713
02:05:22,950 --> 02:05:19,599
rather than a different way that's kind

3714
02:05:24,070 --> 02:05:22,960
of almost another way of saying how

3715
02:05:26,070 --> 02:05:24,080
and

3716
02:05:29,189 --> 02:05:26,080
i think

3717
02:05:31,750 --> 02:05:29,199
why is one of the most human questions

3718
02:05:34,629 --> 02:05:31,760
and it's a childlike question

3719
02:05:36,390 --> 02:05:34,639
children always want to know why and and

3720
02:05:38,070 --> 02:05:36,400
i think it's the motivation for many

3721
02:05:40,310 --> 02:05:38,080
people to go into science and one of the

3722
02:05:42,550 --> 02:05:40,320
things about science is it tries to stop

3723
02:05:44,790 --> 02:05:42,560
you from being too naive and tries to

3724
02:05:48,149 --> 02:05:44,800
impose a method on you to

3725
02:05:49,189 --> 02:05:48,159
to be objective and to not ask questions

3726
02:05:51,830 --> 02:05:49,199
that are

3727
02:05:53,510 --> 02:05:51,840
unanswerable in some way to stick to the

3728
02:05:54,470 --> 02:05:53,520
as i mentioned the art of the soluble

3729
02:05:56,629 --> 02:05:54,480
before

3730
02:05:58,390 --> 02:05:56,639
we'll never know why but but we can't

3731
02:05:59,750 --> 02:05:58,400
help asking why and as i say i can't

3732
02:06:03,109 --> 02:05:59,760
tell the difference between why and how

3733
02:06:04,149 --> 02:06:03,119
anyway so um it's very exciting asking

3734
02:06:06,709 --> 02:06:04,159
why

3735
02:06:08,390 --> 02:06:06,719
and um

3736
02:06:11,669 --> 02:06:08,400
and perhaps it's more forgiven in books

3737
02:06:14,070 --> 02:06:11,679
than it is in in in papers and and you

3738
02:06:16,550 --> 02:06:14,080
know the more scientific literature

3739
02:06:17,510 --> 02:06:16,560
books i think are a good place to ask

3740
02:06:18,870 --> 02:06:17,520
why

3741
02:06:20,790 --> 02:06:18,880
um

3742
02:06:22,709 --> 02:06:20,800
and uh and maybe that's why i write

3743
02:06:24,550 --> 02:06:22,719
books in part because it gives me this

3744
02:06:26,229 --> 02:06:24,560
outlet to wonder about things to wonder

3745
02:06:28,070 --> 02:06:26,239
about the world and in the end that is

3746
02:06:31,189 --> 02:06:28,080
what science is it's about

3747
02:06:33,350 --> 02:06:31,199
how do we explain the world which is to

3748
02:06:35,030 --> 02:06:33,360
say why is the world this way when it

3749
02:06:37,189 --> 02:06:35,040
could have been so many other ways i

3750
02:06:38,550 --> 02:06:37,199
think why is it is in fact you know it's

3751
02:06:40,629 --> 02:06:38,560
a question in physics why are the

3752
02:06:42,229 --> 02:06:40,639
cosmological constants that way rather

3753
02:06:44,950 --> 02:06:42,239
than some other way that's the theory of

3754
02:06:46,550 --> 02:06:44,960
everything supposed to explain that um

3755
02:06:47,430 --> 02:06:46,560
it's a why question

3756
02:06:49,030 --> 02:06:47,440
to me

3757
02:06:51,109 --> 02:06:49,040
you could say how did it come to be that

3758
02:06:53,270 --> 02:06:51,119
way

3759
02:06:55,109 --> 02:06:53,280
i see the strengths of science as being

3760
02:06:57,270 --> 02:06:55,119
what you mentioned the focusing on

3761
02:06:58,550 --> 02:06:57,280
what's soluble and then the weakness is

3762
02:06:59,990 --> 02:06:58,560
also that too

3763
02:07:02,149 --> 02:07:00,000
the reason why i say that but i don't

3764
02:07:03,669 --> 02:07:02,159
know how to solve this so i'm just gonna

3765
02:07:06,470 --> 02:07:03,679
pose this as a question

3766
02:07:08,550 --> 02:07:06,480
if one was to go into a phd program but

3767
02:07:10,550 --> 02:07:08,560
produced no papers in four years or

3768
02:07:13,589 --> 02:07:10,560
produced papers with all negative

3769
02:07:17,030 --> 02:07:13,599
results then you would likely not be

3770
02:07:18,709 --> 02:07:17,040
hired and so yes when you're

3771
02:07:19,669 --> 02:07:18,719
a young person when you're at your most

3772
02:07:21,830 --> 02:07:19,679
creative

3773
02:07:23,589 --> 02:07:21,840
you're disincentivized for pursuing wild

3774
02:07:24,950 --> 02:07:23,599
ideas that because most likely they

3775
02:07:26,629 --> 02:07:24,960
won't work but they may also lead to

3776
02:07:28,229 --> 02:07:26,639
breakthroughs

3777
02:07:30,470 --> 02:07:28,239
now there's a bit of a tragedy about

3778
02:07:32,390 --> 02:07:30,480
that it means that we we prioritize

3779
02:07:33,830 --> 02:07:32,400
certain incremental progress yes versus

3780
02:07:37,270 --> 02:07:33,840
these substantial things absolutely

3781
02:07:39,669 --> 02:07:37,280
agree and now you know i i my lab mostly

3782
02:07:41,270 --> 02:07:39,679
works on the origin of life and and uh

3783
02:07:43,270 --> 02:07:41,280
you know i have phd students and

3784
02:07:44,950 --> 02:07:43,280
post-docs and so on and i face this

3785
02:07:46,470 --> 02:07:44,960
problem every day

3786
02:07:49,109 --> 02:07:46,480
um that

3787
02:07:49,990 --> 02:07:49,119
most of the results we get are negative

3788
02:07:51,669 --> 02:07:50,000
um

3789
02:07:53,669 --> 02:07:51,679
what are we going to do

3790
02:07:55,189 --> 02:07:53,679
uh how do i

3791
02:07:57,750 --> 02:07:55,199
you know i don't want my

3792
02:07:59,750 --> 02:07:57,760
students to all fail to publish any

3793
02:08:01,589 --> 02:07:59,760
papers fail to get any positive results

3794
02:08:03,350 --> 02:08:01,599
and finish their careers that's the last

3795
02:08:04,310 --> 02:08:03,360
thing i i want for them

3796
02:08:05,430 --> 02:08:04,320
um

3797
02:08:09,510 --> 02:08:05,440
so

3798
02:08:11,669 --> 02:08:09,520
you've got to you've got to aim for the

3799
02:08:13,430 --> 02:08:11,679
lowest hanging fruit you've got to keep

3800
02:08:16,149 --> 02:08:13,440
the big picture at the back of your mind

3801
02:08:18,310 --> 02:08:16,159
and try to think of experiments that

3802
02:08:19,430 --> 02:08:18,320
that will

3803
02:08:20,830 --> 02:08:19,440
um

3804
02:08:23,030 --> 02:08:20,840
work in one way or

3805
02:08:25,189 --> 02:08:23,040
another um

3806
02:08:27,030 --> 02:08:25,199
and and you've got to not forget about

3807
02:08:28,950 --> 02:08:27,040
the the bigger questions behind it and

3808
02:08:30,790 --> 02:08:28,960
keep on trying them so i think you have

3809
02:08:34,149 --> 02:08:30,800
to move people around

3810
02:08:36,149 --> 02:08:34,159
so that if something starts working

3811
02:08:37,669 --> 02:08:36,159
and one students had two years of

3812
02:08:38,629 --> 02:08:37,679
getting nothing then you've got to give

3813
02:08:39,990 --> 02:08:38,639
them something where they're going to

3814
02:08:42,229 --> 02:08:40,000
get something now

3815
02:08:45,109 --> 02:08:42,239
um that you know

3816
02:08:47,589 --> 02:08:45,119
it's it's difficult and it's difficult

3817
02:08:49,669 --> 02:08:47,599
not because of the scientific question

3818
02:08:51,109 --> 02:08:49,679
so much because the human aspect of

3819
02:08:53,270 --> 02:08:51,119
people's careers that they need to be

3820
02:08:54,870 --> 02:08:53,280
able to come out of it with

3821
02:08:56,470 --> 02:08:54,880
with um

3822
02:08:58,069 --> 02:08:56,480
you know a career ahead of them

3823
02:09:00,709 --> 02:08:58,079
something to look forward to why do you

3824
02:09:03,270 --> 02:09:00,719
think it is that negative results aren't

3825
02:09:05,510 --> 02:09:03,280
seen as worthy as or as worthy as

3826
02:09:07,830 --> 02:09:05,520
positive results because to me just as

3827
02:09:08,950 --> 02:09:07,840
an outsider i see this as data even if

3828
02:09:10,790 --> 02:09:08,960
you were to say so and so it doesn't

3829
02:09:12,870 --> 02:09:10,800
work great now i know so-and-so doesn't

3830
02:09:14,950 --> 02:09:12,880
work there's the replication crisis in

3831
02:09:16,310 --> 02:09:14,960
psychology yes particularly because

3832
02:09:17,990 --> 02:09:16,320
people are incentivized to find

3833
02:09:21,030 --> 02:09:18,000
affirming or new results rather than

3834
02:09:24,550 --> 02:09:22,629
i think it's um

3835
02:09:28,069 --> 02:09:24,560
i mean we've got a

3836
02:09:29,510 --> 02:09:28,079
a paper coming up um

3837
02:09:31,270 --> 02:09:29,520
it's probably going to be under embargo

3838
02:09:33,270 --> 02:09:31,280
but it's actually is out there as a

3839
02:09:36,790 --> 02:09:33,280
pre-print anyway so i'll tell you about

3840
02:09:39,669 --> 02:09:36,800
it anyway exclusive to toe

3841
02:09:42,550 --> 02:09:39,679
uh this is this is about how how atp

3842
02:09:44,950 --> 02:09:42,560
is uh formed now we've found this is

3843
02:09:46,709 --> 02:09:44,960
silvana pinner who did her phd with me

3844
02:09:47,910 --> 02:09:46,719
and she finished a while ago and and

3845
02:09:49,030 --> 02:09:47,920
this is her

3846
02:09:51,430 --> 02:09:49,040
big paper

3847
02:09:52,709 --> 02:09:51,440
from this and what she found was

3848
02:09:54,629 --> 02:09:52,719
actually what she did was was

3849
02:09:56,390 --> 02:09:54,639
effectively repeat some earlier work

3850
02:09:59,510 --> 02:09:56,400
from a japanese group

3851
02:10:00,950 --> 02:09:59,520
um from 20 years ago and they had found

3852
02:10:01,830 --> 02:10:00,960
by chance

3853
02:10:04,950 --> 02:10:01,840
that

3854
02:10:08,629 --> 02:10:04,960
um a corroding iron electrode

3855
02:10:10,550 --> 02:10:08,639
uh when they got adp in solution

3856
02:10:12,149 --> 02:10:10,560
around that electrode i actually formed

3857
02:10:13,910 --> 02:10:12,159
some atp

3858
02:10:15,750 --> 02:10:13,920
and they they looked into it and it

3859
02:10:17,990 --> 02:10:15,760
turned out that ferric iron which is say

3860
02:10:18,790 --> 02:10:18,000
iron with three positive charges on it

3861
02:10:20,470 --> 02:10:18,800
um

3862
02:10:22,870 --> 02:10:20,480
will catalyze

3863
02:10:24,390 --> 02:10:22,880
um the formation this had to be in the

3864
02:10:26,149 --> 02:10:24,400
presence of something called acetyl

3865
02:10:27,270 --> 02:10:26,159
phosphate which is just a two carbon

3866
02:10:29,350 --> 02:10:27,280
compound

3867
02:10:31,750 --> 02:10:29,360
would catalyze the the phosphorylation

3868
02:10:34,390 --> 02:10:31,760
of adp to atp which is what our

3869
02:10:36,149 --> 02:10:34,400
mitochondria are doing all the time

3870
02:10:37,990 --> 02:10:36,159
but instead of having all this molecular

3871
02:10:40,390 --> 02:10:38,000
machinery like the atp synthase it's

3872
02:10:42,310 --> 02:10:40,400
just happening in water with ferric iron

3873
02:10:44,390 --> 02:10:42,320
as the only catalyst so that's pretty

3874
02:10:47,189 --> 02:10:44,400
amazing

3875
02:10:48,950 --> 02:10:47,199
so she repeated this it took a while to

3876
02:10:50,550 --> 02:10:48,960
figure out exactly how they'd done it

3877
02:10:52,629 --> 02:10:50,560
and this is very often the case and for

3878
02:10:54,390 --> 02:10:52,639
a period i remember we were concerned

3879
02:10:57,430 --> 02:10:54,400
that it would not be

3880
02:11:00,310 --> 02:10:57,440
possible to replicate it

3881
02:11:01,189 --> 02:11:00,320
and then she succeeded in replicating it

3882
02:11:03,830 --> 02:11:01,199
um

3883
02:11:04,950 --> 02:11:03,840
and that's i i find that increasingly

3884
02:11:06,870 --> 02:11:04,960
pleasing

3885
02:11:08,629 --> 02:11:06,880
just simply to replicate other people's

3886
02:11:10,629 --> 02:11:08,639
work because of this problem that

3887
02:11:11,589 --> 02:11:10,639
sometimes you know it's sometimes it's

3888
02:11:13,430 --> 02:11:11,599
made up

3889
02:11:17,589 --> 02:11:13,440
sometimes

3890
02:11:19,750 --> 02:11:17,599
but it's for whatever reason there was

3891
02:11:21,030 --> 02:11:19,760
some aspect of chance that allowed it to

3892
02:11:23,030 --> 02:11:21,040
you know

3893
02:11:25,189 --> 02:11:23,040
to be able to replicate science i think

3894
02:11:27,350 --> 02:11:25,199
is the perhaps the single most important

3895
02:11:29,830 --> 02:11:27,360
thing in science and and so it's very

3896
02:11:32,069 --> 02:11:29,840
pleasing when you succeed in doing it

3897
02:11:35,189 --> 02:11:32,079
now she is the probably the single most

3898
02:11:38,229 --> 02:11:35,199
careful uh scientist that i've ever met

3899
02:11:39,750 --> 02:11:38,239
she she really uh is is amazingly

3900
02:11:40,870 --> 02:11:39,760
precise you could never see her error

3901
02:11:41,830 --> 02:11:40,880
bars

3902
02:11:43,990 --> 02:11:41,840
because

3903
02:11:46,870 --> 02:11:44,000
the repeats were so so similar to each

3904
02:11:48,870 --> 02:11:46,880
other this really wasn't one um

3905
02:11:51,270 --> 02:11:48,880
but all her all the rest of her data was

3906
02:11:53,189 --> 02:11:51,280
negative

3907
02:11:54,790 --> 02:11:53,199
which was very interesting she so so he

3908
02:11:57,350 --> 02:11:54,800
worked with ferric iron but she tried

3909
02:11:59,910 --> 02:11:57,360
with about 10 other different metal ions

3910
02:12:01,910 --> 02:11:59,920
and none of the other metal ions worked

3911
02:12:03,589 --> 02:12:01,920
and she tried with about seven or eight

3912
02:12:05,270 --> 02:12:03,599
different phosphorylating agents instead

3913
02:12:07,589 --> 02:12:05,280
of acetyl phosphate and none of those

3914
02:12:09,910 --> 02:12:07,599
worked and she tried with the other

3915
02:12:13,030 --> 02:12:09,920
bases so instead of adp she tried with

3916
02:12:15,589 --> 02:12:13,040
gdp and cdps or the other letters in in

3917
02:12:16,870 --> 02:12:15,599
rna and udp and so on none of those

3918
02:12:18,790 --> 02:12:16,880
worked either

3919
02:12:20,950 --> 02:12:18,800
so this is a paper made up entirely of

3920
02:12:22,470 --> 02:12:20,960
negative data apart from one result

3921
02:12:24,870 --> 02:12:22,480
which had actually been done by someone

3922
02:12:26,790 --> 02:12:24,880
else 20 years earlier and replicated by

3923
02:12:28,550 --> 02:12:26,800
still manner and the

3924
02:12:29,990 --> 02:12:28,560
now this is where negative data really

3925
02:12:30,950 --> 02:12:30,000
comes into its own

3926
02:12:33,510 --> 02:12:30,960
because

3927
02:12:34,629 --> 02:12:33,520
it it basically says there is something

3928
02:12:37,350 --> 02:12:34,639
favored

3929
02:12:39,109 --> 02:12:37,360
about adp compared to the other bases

3930
02:12:40,709 --> 02:12:39,119
and about acetal phosphate compared to

3931
02:12:42,149 --> 02:12:40,719
the other phosphorylating ages and about

3932
02:12:45,189 --> 02:12:42,159
this metal iron compared to those other

3933
02:12:46,950 --> 02:12:45,199
metal ions this is favored chemistry why

3934
02:12:49,030 --> 02:12:46,960
is it favored we could come up with a

3935
02:12:50,629 --> 02:12:49,040
mechanism for it and so on

3936
02:12:52,310 --> 02:12:50,639
but there the negative data is

3937
02:12:54,629 --> 02:12:52,320
effectively saying there's a limited

3938
02:12:55,510 --> 02:12:54,639
number of ways that this will happen

3939
02:12:57,669 --> 02:12:55,520
um

3940
02:12:59,510 --> 02:12:57,679
and and here's one way where it does

3941
02:13:01,350 --> 02:12:59,520
maybe there are other ways that does as

3942
02:13:03,030 --> 02:13:01,360
well and we just look at those some

3943
02:13:05,830 --> 02:13:03,040
other metal iron that was not in our

3944
02:13:08,229 --> 02:13:05,840
panel um you know you can have huge

3945
02:13:09,750 --> 02:13:08,239
combinatorial panels but we looked at

3946
02:13:11,510 --> 02:13:09,760
all the metal ions that seem to have any

3947
02:13:13,669 --> 02:13:11,520
relevance to life or any relevance to

3948
02:13:16,390 --> 02:13:13,679
geochemistry and this ferric ion was the

3949
02:13:17,589 --> 02:13:16,400
only one that worked

3950
02:13:19,510 --> 02:13:17,599
now

3951
02:13:23,350 --> 02:13:19,520
the problem

3952
02:13:25,350 --> 02:13:23,360
is that imagine that ferric iron didn't

3953
02:13:27,669 --> 02:13:25,360
work either then you would have a paper

3954
02:13:29,030 --> 02:13:27,679
where everything was negative

3955
02:13:30,709 --> 02:13:29,040
let's just say that she didn't know

3956
02:13:32,470 --> 02:13:30,719
about that paper and that she never

3957
02:13:33,990 --> 02:13:32,480
tried ferric iron and that she tried all

3958
02:13:35,589 --> 02:13:34,000
the others what she would have had would

3959
02:13:36,550 --> 02:13:35,599
have been a completely negative set of

3960
02:13:37,669 --> 02:13:36,560
data

3961
02:13:40,629 --> 02:13:37,679
which

3962
02:13:43,589 --> 02:13:40,639
would be unpublishable because

3963
02:13:46,149 --> 02:13:43,599
um nothing worked now

3964
02:13:47,510 --> 02:13:46,159
maybe if she tried some other ions

3965
02:13:50,390 --> 02:13:47,520
then it would have worked like ferric

3966
02:13:52,149 --> 02:13:50,400
ion did but if you don't happen to

3967
02:13:54,310 --> 02:13:52,159
choose that one then you'll never know

3968
02:13:56,149 --> 02:13:54,320
and so you can never rule something out

3969
02:13:58,229 --> 02:13:56,159
you can never you know if all your data

3970
02:13:59,589 --> 02:13:58,239
is negative it doesn't mean it can't

3971
02:14:01,830 --> 02:13:59,599
work it just means that everything we

3972
02:14:03,990 --> 02:14:01,840
tried under the conditions that we tried

3973
02:14:05,990 --> 02:14:04,000
it it never did work

3974
02:14:07,750 --> 02:14:06,000
and at that point we decided to pull the

3975
02:14:09,030 --> 02:14:07,760
project because this poor phd student's

3976
02:14:10,629 --> 02:14:09,040
never going to get a paper out of it

3977
02:14:11,990 --> 02:14:10,639
that we we explored it as well as we

3978
02:14:14,550 --> 02:14:12,000
could but the reality is we've got to

3979
02:14:16,310 --> 02:14:14,560
move on and so you've never disproved it

3980
02:14:18,069 --> 02:14:16,320
but you've kind of just given up trying

3981
02:14:19,589 --> 02:14:18,079
to prove it now

3982
02:14:21,589 --> 02:14:19,599
whereas the fact that someone had done

3983
02:14:23,109 --> 02:14:21,599
it before meant that that was the one

3984
02:14:25,030 --> 02:14:23,119
that she tried first which meant that

3985
02:14:26,390 --> 02:14:25,040
when we when the paper comes now we have

3986
02:14:28,149 --> 02:14:26,400
something which is really exciting which

3987
02:14:30,550 --> 02:14:28,159
is to say the reason that atp is the

3988
02:14:32,629 --> 02:14:30,560
universal energy currency is precisely

3989
02:14:34,629 --> 02:14:32,639
that it works as prebiotic chemistry in

3990
02:14:36,149 --> 02:14:34,639
water or by itself just with one metal

3991
02:14:37,510 --> 02:14:36,159
ion as a catalyst and that works and

3992
02:14:40,149 --> 02:14:37,520
nothing else does work and that's why

3993
02:14:41,910 --> 02:14:40,159
it's this way so suddenly you've got a

3994
02:14:44,229 --> 02:14:41,920
very sexy message

3995
02:14:45,750 --> 02:14:44,239
um which in the end is based on the fact

3996
02:14:46,790 --> 02:14:45,760
that someone else had

3997
02:14:48,709 --> 02:14:46,800
found

3998
02:14:50,629 --> 02:14:48,719
out something 20 years ago that was

3999
02:14:52,149 --> 02:14:50,639
really a serendipitous discovery that

4000
02:14:53,910 --> 02:14:52,159
they were not applying to the origin of

4001
02:14:55,430 --> 02:14:53,920
life or anything else it's just you know

4002
02:14:57,750 --> 02:14:55,440
and and science is built this way

4003
02:14:59,990 --> 02:14:57,760
science is built on it's kind of network

4004
02:15:01,669 --> 02:15:00,000
of the efforts of different people doing

4005
02:15:04,149 --> 02:15:01,679
different things for different reasons

4006
02:15:06,470 --> 02:15:04,159
and you try and put it together and

4007
02:15:07,910 --> 02:15:06,480
you've got to you know juggle what works

4008
02:15:09,669 --> 02:15:07,920
what doesn't work when do you give up

4009
02:15:11,430 --> 02:15:09,679
and and very rarely can you ever

4010
02:15:13,830 --> 02:15:11,440
disprove anything formally in a way that

4011
02:15:15,030 --> 02:15:13,840
a physicist would understand disprove

4012
02:15:16,069 --> 02:15:15,040
just you know

4013
02:15:17,669 --> 02:15:16,079
it's

4014
02:15:19,830 --> 02:15:17,679
that's why the positive results are

4015
02:15:21,189 --> 02:15:19,840
important because

4016
02:15:23,270 --> 02:15:21,199
they are

4017
02:15:24,950 --> 02:15:23,280
they give you something to say

4018
02:15:26,390 --> 02:15:24,960
whereas the negative results don't give

4019
02:15:28,229 --> 02:15:26,400
you anything to say they just say

4020
02:15:29,510 --> 02:15:28,239
everything we tried didn't work it's

4021
02:15:30,390 --> 02:15:29,520
possible that something else would have

4022
02:15:31,910 --> 02:15:30,400
worked

4023
02:15:34,229 --> 02:15:31,920
but we don't know because we didn't do

4024
02:15:36,470 --> 02:15:34,239
that so that's not it's not going to

4025
02:15:38,310 --> 02:15:36,480
sell any papers

4026
02:15:39,669 --> 02:15:38,320
i'm not entirely sure about that well

4027
02:15:41,030 --> 02:15:39,679
you would know in your domain but in

4028
02:15:43,510 --> 02:15:41,040
physics there's something called no go

4029
02:15:45,030 --> 02:15:43,520
theorems so for example there's the no

4030
02:15:47,830 --> 02:15:45,040
go theorem which says that you can't

4031
02:15:49,669 --> 02:15:47,840
have a graviton in 4d quantum field

4032
02:15:51,430 --> 02:15:49,679
theory and then that then you're like

4033
02:15:52,629 --> 02:15:51,440
well what's the hope for gravity and

4034
02:15:55,189 --> 02:15:52,639
then that's one of the reasons why

4035
02:15:57,270 --> 02:15:55,199
people think that there's ads cft

4036
02:15:59,270 --> 02:15:57,280
correspondence the holographic principle

4037
02:16:01,350 --> 02:15:59,280
because okay there there was a hidden

4038
02:16:03,189 --> 02:16:01,360
assumption that wasn't stated by whitten

4039
02:16:05,270 --> 02:16:03,199
actually and he's a careful person which

4040
02:16:07,750 --> 02:16:05,280
is that you can't have a graviton in

4041
02:16:09,589 --> 02:16:07,760
your same three plus one quantum field

4042
02:16:11,189 --> 02:16:09,599
theory but you can in a different

4043
02:16:12,550 --> 02:16:11,199
quantum field theory so you can have

4044
02:16:14,390 --> 02:16:12,560
that's why you have this universe within

4045
02:16:15,990 --> 02:16:14,400
another border okay but anyway so a

4046
02:16:17,189 --> 02:16:16,000
negative result can still lead to

4047
02:16:19,750 --> 02:16:17,199
breakthroughs like it leads to hope

4048
02:16:21,750 --> 02:16:19,760
there's ads cft is like almost a whole

4049
02:16:24,149 --> 02:16:21,760
field in and of itself the way that when

4050
02:16:26,629 --> 02:16:24,159
i hear this what i'm wondering is hmm

4051
02:16:28,390 --> 02:16:26,639
why is it not the case that studies in

4052
02:16:30,229 --> 02:16:28,400
different fields

4053
02:16:31,589 --> 02:16:30,239
pre-register i don't know if this is

4054
02:16:32,870 --> 02:16:31,599
forgive me if i'm speaking out well i

4055
02:16:34,870 --> 02:16:32,880
think a lot of clinical trials

4056
02:16:36,549 --> 02:16:34,880
pre-register in that sense so a clinical

4057
02:16:38,709 --> 02:16:36,559
trial that is negative

4058
02:16:40,469 --> 02:16:38,719
and there you're you know there it's

4059
02:16:42,469 --> 02:16:40,479
often funded by a pharmaceutical company

4060
02:16:45,190 --> 02:16:42,479
or something you have some interest in

4061
02:16:47,669 --> 02:16:45,200
not publishing negative data but the the

4062
02:16:48,870 --> 02:16:47,679
regulators or the other you know it's in

4063
02:16:50,709 --> 02:16:48,880
it's in the public interest that it

4064
02:16:52,150 --> 02:16:50,719
should be published and and so this idea

4065
02:16:54,230 --> 02:16:52,160
of pre-registering

4066
02:16:56,309 --> 02:16:54,240
is uh is a good one but the there's a

4067
02:16:58,830 --> 02:16:56,319
there's a kind of a big difference

4068
02:17:01,509 --> 02:16:58,840
the big clinical trials

4069
02:17:03,429 --> 02:17:01,519
um are are

4070
02:17:05,270 --> 02:17:03,439
they're very expensive to set up they're

4071
02:17:07,270 --> 02:17:05,280
very constrained in the way in which

4072
02:17:09,830 --> 02:17:07,280
they're set up they're only

4073
02:17:13,190 --> 02:17:09,840
there there's kind of statistically

4074
02:17:16,309 --> 02:17:14,870
they've been set up so statistically

4075
02:17:18,070 --> 02:17:16,319
they can demonstrate a difference

4076
02:17:19,669 --> 02:17:18,080
between a treatment or a different

4077
02:17:20,629 --> 02:17:19,679
treatment or no treatment or whatever it

4078
02:17:22,870 --> 02:17:20,639
may be

4079
02:17:25,030 --> 02:17:22,880
um so

4080
02:17:26,549 --> 02:17:25,040
so

4081
02:17:28,629 --> 02:17:26,559
they come up with you know they they

4082
02:17:29,910 --> 02:17:28,639
come up with an outcome and and the

4083
02:17:31,990 --> 02:17:29,920
chances are

4084
02:17:33,910 --> 02:17:32,000
it's going to be about as reliable a

4085
02:17:36,389 --> 02:17:33,920
statement as you can make

4086
02:17:38,230 --> 02:17:36,399
um but it's very unwieldy it might take

4087
02:17:41,030 --> 02:17:38,240
five years to do it it might cost 20

4088
02:17:44,309 --> 02:17:41,040
million pounds or something it's where's

4089
02:17:46,389 --> 02:17:44,319
a lot of a lot of smaller scale science

4090
02:17:48,230 --> 02:17:46,399
is much more maneuverable

4091
02:17:51,589 --> 02:17:48,240
you can you know if

4092
02:17:53,110 --> 02:17:51,599
no phd student would ever

4093
02:17:55,030 --> 02:17:53,120
no and i mean there's also this

4094
02:17:56,389 --> 02:17:55,040
competitive side in science as well

4095
02:17:57,750 --> 02:17:56,399
whereas if you told everybody what you

4096
02:17:59,030 --> 02:17:57,760
were doing then they would do it quicker

4097
02:18:01,589 --> 02:17:59,040
than you could so there's the you know

4098
02:18:03,429 --> 02:18:01,599
there's there's some element in which

4099
02:18:05,110 --> 02:18:03,439
uh people don't want to say what they're

4100
02:18:06,629 --> 02:18:05,120
doing necessarily i'm not sure that

4101
02:18:08,309 --> 02:18:06,639
that's a good thing but it is the

4102
02:18:10,309 --> 02:18:08,319
reality

4103
02:18:11,830 --> 02:18:10,319
basically what i was saying what i was

4104
02:18:14,070 --> 02:18:11,840
thinking is that hey the negative

4105
02:18:15,990 --> 02:18:14,080
results themselves maybe there were 30

4106
02:18:18,309 --> 02:18:16,000
other people across

4107
02:18:20,870 --> 02:18:18,319
the history of biology that have tried

4108
02:18:22,790 --> 02:18:20,880
to formulate atp

4109
02:18:24,870 --> 02:18:22,800
using those metals that didn't work but

4110
02:18:26,629 --> 02:18:24,880
sylvana your assistant couldn't sorry

4111
02:18:29,669 --> 02:18:26,639
you're a phd student correct

4112
02:18:31,110 --> 02:18:29,679
yes yes your phd student couldn't

4113
02:18:32,549 --> 02:18:31,120
didn't see the literature because

4114
02:18:34,469 --> 02:18:32,559
everyone else said no and so then she

4115
02:18:35,990 --> 02:18:34,479
wasted her time too and those 29 other

4116
02:18:37,910 --> 02:18:36,000
people wasted their time and i was

4117
02:18:39,669 --> 02:18:37,920
thinking well then if you publish

4118
02:18:41,669 --> 02:18:39,679
negative results does that just bloat

4119
02:18:43,429 --> 02:18:41,679
all the journals or like is there

4120
02:18:45,830 --> 02:18:43,439
another reason to not well i mean the

4121
02:18:48,150 --> 02:18:45,840
journal the journals are already bloated

4122
02:18:49,030 --> 02:18:48,160
i i actually think that

4123
02:18:51,830 --> 02:18:49,040
um

4124
02:18:53,270 --> 02:18:51,840
reading too much of the journals is not

4125
02:18:55,910 --> 02:18:53,280
good for you

4126
02:18:58,070 --> 02:18:55,920
um which is to say

4127
02:18:59,589 --> 02:18:58,080
when when i have new students starting

4128
02:19:02,389 --> 02:18:59,599
very often they're encouraged to do a

4129
02:19:03,830 --> 02:19:02,399
literature review and they'll often get

4130
02:19:05,669 --> 02:19:03,840
bogged down because literature is

4131
02:19:08,230 --> 02:19:05,679
overwhelming there's so much of it out

4132
02:19:09,349 --> 02:19:08,240
there and and it's written in such a way

4133
02:19:11,270 --> 02:19:09,359
as to

4134
02:19:14,469 --> 02:19:11,280
imply that the results that they did

4135
02:19:15,750 --> 02:19:14,479
were decisive in some way um and you'll

4136
02:19:17,110 --> 02:19:15,760
come out with the feeling that

4137
02:19:19,830 --> 02:19:17,120
everything's been done and there's

4138
02:19:21,990 --> 02:19:19,840
really nothing left to do here and

4139
02:19:22,950 --> 02:19:22,000
well i you might as well despair at that

4140
02:19:25,190 --> 02:19:22,960
point

4141
02:19:27,910 --> 02:19:25,200
um so it's actually much more productive

4142
02:19:29,669 --> 02:19:27,920
not to know about any of that to to be

4143
02:19:33,110 --> 02:19:29,679
deliberately ignorant

4144
02:19:34,629 --> 02:19:33,120
and to just blunder around for a while

4145
02:19:36,709 --> 02:19:34,639
until you begin to see something and

4146
02:19:39,030 --> 02:19:36,719
then at that point is the time to access

4147
02:19:41,030 --> 02:19:39,040
the literature so has have other people

4148
02:19:43,429 --> 02:19:41,040
done this before and the answer is often

4149
02:19:44,790 --> 02:19:43,439
yes they have but we did this bit

4150
02:19:46,469 --> 02:19:44,800
different and we did that bit different

4151
02:19:49,670 --> 02:19:46,479
and they did this but we did that and so

4152
02:19:51,030 --> 02:19:49,680
on and so on and so um

4153
02:19:54,230 --> 02:19:51,040
you often end up getting different

4154
02:19:56,950 --> 02:19:54,240
results to what they got and you realize

4155
02:19:58,870 --> 02:19:56,960
that well if we'd just taken for granted

4156
02:20:00,630 --> 02:19:58,880
what they said and didn't do anything we

4157
02:20:01,510 --> 02:20:00,640
would never have found that

4158
02:20:03,670 --> 02:20:01,520
so

4159
02:20:05,750 --> 02:20:03,680
and and and if you find exactly the same

4160
02:20:07,190 --> 02:20:05,760
as them then that's kind of nice to know

4161
02:20:08,630 --> 02:20:07,200
as well and you'll probably try and drop

4162
02:20:10,630 --> 02:20:08,640
it into a paper somewhere just to make

4163
02:20:12,469 --> 02:20:10,640
it clear that this you have successfully

4164
02:20:14,230 --> 02:20:12,479
replicated someone else's work it's

4165
02:20:17,030 --> 02:20:14,240
worth saying that you've done that

4166
02:20:19,110 --> 02:20:17,040
but but very often you know a paper may

4167
02:20:20,389 --> 02:20:19,120
close down an area by saying this is not

4168
02:20:21,830 --> 02:20:20,399
possible and in fact they were wrong

4169
02:20:23,590 --> 02:20:21,840
because they did the wrong experiment

4170
02:20:25,670 --> 02:20:23,600
and there's so many possible experiments

4171
02:20:28,710 --> 02:20:25,680
you can do that so long as you don't

4172
02:20:31,110 --> 02:20:28,720
close yourself down by believing them

4173
02:20:32,550 --> 02:20:31,120
then you'll go on and find something new

4174
02:20:35,030 --> 02:20:32,560
so i

4175
02:20:36,630 --> 02:20:35,040
i would sing the praises of uh of

4176
02:20:38,070 --> 02:20:36,640
blundering around in ignorance in the

4177
02:20:40,469 --> 02:20:38,080
scientific undergrowth because it's the

4178
02:20:41,670 --> 02:20:40,479
way to make progress

4179
02:20:43,510 --> 02:20:41,680
let's wrap i just got to use the

4180
02:20:45,270 --> 02:20:43,520
washroom once more and i would be remiss

4181
02:20:47,670 --> 02:20:45,280
if i didn't ask you carl fristan's

4182
02:20:48,389 --> 02:20:47,680
questions he sent me some to ask you

4183
02:20:49,670 --> 02:20:48,399
uh

4184
02:20:55,190 --> 02:20:49,680
right yeah

4185
02:20:59,190 --> 02:20:56,710
now this question comes from carl

4186
02:21:01,270 --> 02:20:59,200
fristen number one is the increase in

4187
02:21:03,990 --> 02:21:01,280
diversity and complexity of phenotypic

4188
02:21:05,830 --> 02:21:04,000
forms a universal feature of evolution

4189
02:21:08,150 --> 02:21:05,840
and if so

4190
02:21:09,110 --> 02:21:08,160
is there any principled explanation for

4191
02:21:11,030 --> 02:21:09,120
this

4192
02:21:13,590 --> 02:21:11,040
um

4193
02:21:14,630 --> 02:21:13,600
i mean this the simple answer is

4194
02:21:16,630 --> 02:21:14,640
yes

4195
02:21:19,510 --> 02:21:16,640
uh and

4196
02:21:22,309 --> 02:21:19,520
i suppose the reason is simply mutations

4197
02:21:24,309 --> 02:21:22,319
um which leads to diversity

4198
02:21:26,150 --> 02:21:24,319
so

4199
02:21:28,550 --> 02:21:26,160
mutations are almost impossible to i

4200
02:21:30,710 --> 02:21:28,560
mean all of all of evolution is based on

4201
02:21:32,469 --> 02:21:30,720
mutations and they have

4202
02:21:33,349 --> 02:21:32,479
an enormous power

4203
02:21:35,429 --> 02:21:33,359
um

4204
02:21:37,910 --> 02:21:35,439
this the standard

4205
02:21:39,670 --> 02:21:37,920
the standard way of seeing

4206
02:21:41,110 --> 02:21:39,680
natural selection from a population

4207
02:21:42,630 --> 02:21:41,120
genetics point of view so i'm not a

4208
02:21:45,590 --> 02:21:42,640
population geneticist but i'm in the

4209
02:21:47,190 --> 02:21:45,600
department of genetics and uh

4210
02:21:48,790 --> 02:21:47,200
and i work with some population

4211
02:21:51,910 --> 02:21:48,800
geneticists who

4212
02:21:53,590 --> 02:21:51,920
uh you know worked with some of the

4213
02:21:55,910 --> 02:21:53,600
the the founding fathers of the field

4214
02:21:58,469 --> 02:21:55,920
people like jbs haldane and john maynard

4215
02:21:59,990 --> 02:21:58,479
smith and so on um

4216
02:22:03,990 --> 02:22:00,000
and that

4217
02:22:06,070 --> 02:22:04,000
field kind of only lets itself see

4218
02:22:07,670 --> 02:22:06,080
detrimental mutations which is to say

4219
02:22:09,510 --> 02:22:07,680
mutations that are bad for you in one

4220
02:22:10,389 --> 02:22:09,520
way or another now we know that there

4221
02:22:15,030 --> 02:22:10,399
are

4222
02:22:16,230 --> 02:22:15,040
neutral don't make really much of a

4223
02:22:18,070 --> 02:22:16,240
difference

4224
02:22:19,910 --> 02:22:18,080
and there are a few beneficial mutations

4225
02:22:22,469 --> 02:22:19,920
but the ones that are

4226
02:22:24,790 --> 02:22:22,479
effectively bad detrimental

4227
02:22:27,590 --> 02:22:24,800
are are the ones that the field of

4228
02:22:29,670 --> 02:22:27,600
population genetics has historically

4229
02:22:31,990 --> 02:22:29,680
really focused on because they are the

4230
02:22:33,590 --> 02:22:32,000
ones that are most likely to be selected

4231
02:22:35,030 --> 02:22:33,600
against

4232
02:22:37,110 --> 02:22:35,040
so neutral ones will be ignored by

4233
02:22:39,590 --> 02:22:37,120
selection or almost ignored beneficial

4234
02:22:41,910 --> 02:22:39,600
ones are very rare in comparison and and

4235
02:22:44,790 --> 02:22:41,920
detrimental mutations are very common

4236
02:22:46,710 --> 02:22:44,800
um and i find this uh i find this quite

4237
02:22:48,950 --> 02:22:46,720
difficult to get used to because i want

4238
02:22:51,190 --> 02:22:48,960
to think positively about

4239
02:22:51,910 --> 02:22:51,200
about beneficial mutations

4240
02:22:53,590 --> 02:22:51,920
but

4241
02:22:55,429 --> 02:22:53,600
i've become used to thinking in this

4242
02:22:57,750 --> 02:22:55,439
framework and i'm shocked at how much

4243
02:22:59,510 --> 02:22:57,760
power it has so we have a paper out just

4244
02:23:01,750 --> 02:22:59,520
recently with another phd student of

4245
02:23:04,389 --> 02:23:01,760
mine who's a physicist by training uh

4246
02:23:06,630 --> 02:23:04,399
marco colnagi

4247
02:23:08,389 --> 02:23:06,640
and this is asking

4248
02:23:11,110 --> 02:23:08,399
about

4249
02:23:14,070 --> 02:23:11,120
bacteria i mentioned earlier on bacteria

4250
02:23:16,309 --> 02:23:14,080
have this metagenome where they an e

4251
02:23:19,510 --> 02:23:16,319
coli might have 4 000 genes but access

4252
02:23:20,389 --> 02:23:19,520
to 30 000 genes from out there somewhere

4253
02:23:22,150 --> 02:23:20,399
um

4254
02:23:24,150 --> 02:23:22,160
and and they do what's called lateral or

4255
02:23:26,070 --> 02:23:24,160
horizontal gene transfer which is they

4256
02:23:28,150 --> 02:23:26,080
pick up bits of dna from the environment

4257
02:23:30,469 --> 02:23:28,160
and they bind it into themselves

4258
02:23:31,429 --> 02:23:30,479
uh and various people have shown that

4259
02:23:33,429 --> 02:23:31,439
this

4260
02:23:36,230 --> 02:23:33,439
is a little bit equivalent to sex which

4261
02:23:38,790 --> 02:23:36,240
is to say it's doing recombination it's

4262
02:23:41,590 --> 02:23:38,800
changing the gene set that you've got

4263
02:23:43,750 --> 02:23:41,600
and even if on average you pick up genes

4264
02:23:45,349 --> 02:23:43,760
that are worse than the ones you've got

4265
02:23:47,030 --> 02:23:45,359
on average you'll benefit from it

4266
02:23:49,349 --> 02:23:47,040
because you're generating variation that

4267
02:23:52,070 --> 02:23:49,359
selection can act on and if selection

4268
02:23:53,270 --> 02:23:52,080
sees differences between individuals

4269
02:23:54,469 --> 02:23:53,280
then it will

4270
02:23:55,830 --> 02:23:54,479
it will

4271
02:23:57,750 --> 02:23:55,840
select against the ones with the

4272
02:23:58,870 --> 02:23:57,760
detrimental mutations and the ones don't

4273
02:24:00,710 --> 02:23:58,880
have them will

4274
02:24:03,110 --> 02:24:00,720
will flourish and so on

4275
02:24:05,270 --> 02:24:03,120
so basically selection is all about the

4276
02:24:07,270 --> 02:24:05,280
differences between individuals and

4277
02:24:09,110 --> 02:24:07,280
mutations generate differences between

4278
02:24:11,510 --> 02:24:09,120
individuals but moving genes around

4279
02:24:12,870 --> 02:24:11,520
bilateral gene transfer amplifies those

4280
02:24:15,750 --> 02:24:12,880
differences

4281
02:24:17,270 --> 02:24:15,760
and sex is an extraordinary machine for

4282
02:24:18,950 --> 02:24:17,280
generating differences between

4283
02:24:20,389 --> 02:24:18,960
individuals

4284
02:24:22,870 --> 02:24:20,399
and it uses the same machinery that

4285
02:24:24,309 --> 02:24:22,880
bacteria use but it organizes it

4286
02:24:26,070 --> 02:24:24,319
completely different and so there's this

4287
02:24:28,469 --> 02:24:26,080
question why

4288
02:24:31,750 --> 02:24:28,479
and the answer i i think we've we've

4289
02:24:33,590 --> 02:24:31,760
found part of the answer at least um

4290
02:24:35,429 --> 02:24:33,600
i mentioned mitochondria before that

4291
02:24:37,429 --> 02:24:35,439
mitochondria allow you to have a much

4292
02:24:39,270 --> 02:24:37,439
larger genome

4293
02:24:40,870 --> 02:24:39,280
and and having a very large genome gives

4294
02:24:43,510 --> 02:24:40,880
you a problem with preventing it from

4295
02:24:45,670 --> 02:24:43,520
being degraded by mutations

4296
02:24:47,429 --> 02:24:45,680
and the way that bacteria prevent the

4297
02:24:49,349 --> 02:24:47,439
genomes being degraded by mutations is

4298
02:24:52,070 --> 02:24:49,359
picking up bits of dna from around

4299
02:24:53,910 --> 02:24:52,080
around the place and patching it in

4300
02:24:56,150 --> 02:24:53,920
and it works for a bacterial sized

4301
02:24:59,830 --> 02:24:56,160
genome but if you have a much larger

4302
02:25:01,750 --> 02:24:59,840
genome and let's say five times larger

4303
02:25:03,910 --> 02:25:01,760
and you pick up a random bit of dna from

4304
02:25:05,990 --> 02:25:03,920
the environment in effect the chances of

4305
02:25:07,349 --> 02:25:06,000
you getting the right bit is is much

4306
02:25:09,349 --> 02:25:07,359
lower

4307
02:25:11,190 --> 02:25:09,359
and really the only way around it is to

4308
02:25:13,510 --> 02:25:11,200
pick up large chunks

4309
02:25:15,830 --> 02:25:13,520
of dna from the environment and then

4310
02:25:17,590 --> 02:25:15,840
there's a problem that you if if you've

4311
02:25:18,389 --> 02:25:17,600
got any

4312
02:25:20,309 --> 02:25:18,399
any

4313
02:25:21,830 --> 02:25:20,319
sequences that match somewhere else in

4314
02:25:23,429 --> 02:25:21,840
your genome and this is more like the

4315
02:25:25,750 --> 02:25:23,439
larger your genome the more likely to

4316
02:25:27,670 --> 02:25:25,760
have repeat sequence as you are the more

4317
02:25:29,750 --> 02:25:27,680
likely to delete information you are

4318
02:25:31,030 --> 02:25:29,760
when you bring this bit in and throw

4319
02:25:32,230 --> 02:25:31,040
away your bit

4320
02:25:33,910 --> 02:25:32,240
so you end up

4321
02:25:36,389 --> 02:25:33,920
with a system which is

4322
02:25:39,349 --> 02:25:36,399
only set up to

4323
02:25:41,110 --> 02:25:39,359
eliminate detrimental mutations

4324
02:25:43,510 --> 02:25:41,120
can account for

4325
02:25:45,830 --> 02:25:43,520
the transition from bacterial lateral

4326
02:25:47,590 --> 02:25:45,840
gene transfer to what's called meiosis

4327
02:25:49,030 --> 02:25:47,600
and and sex where you like where you

4328
02:25:50,790 --> 02:25:49,040
bring two cells together they fuse

4329
02:25:52,870 --> 02:25:50,800
together they line up the chromosomes

4330
02:25:55,030 --> 02:25:52,880
and so on um

4331
02:25:57,190 --> 02:25:55,040
so the whole the whole thing

4332
02:25:58,950 --> 02:25:57,200
is based on generating differences

4333
02:26:00,950 --> 02:25:58,960
between individuals so that selection

4334
02:26:03,670 --> 02:26:00,960
can act so to come back around in a

4335
02:26:06,389 --> 02:26:03,680
large circle to carl fristan's question

4336
02:26:08,150 --> 02:26:06,399
about divergence between things is

4337
02:26:09,750 --> 02:26:08,160
driven by mutations and it's basically

4338
02:26:12,150 --> 02:26:09,760
inevitable and it will be a property of

4339
02:26:14,389 --> 02:26:12,160
any biological system that's got

4340
02:26:16,389 --> 02:26:14,399
information at the base of it

4341
02:26:18,630 --> 02:26:16,399
all right he has a second question it's

4342
02:26:20,870 --> 02:26:18,640
right carl fristen says what is the role

4343
02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:20,880
of sequestration and isolation in

4344
02:26:25,590 --> 02:26:23,280
evolution at the molecular or cellular

4345
02:26:27,670 --> 02:26:25,600
scale

4346
02:26:30,550 --> 02:26:27,680
sequestration

4347
02:26:32,790 --> 02:26:30,560
um

4348
02:26:35,510 --> 02:26:32,800
so i'm not quite sure what he

4349
02:26:37,110 --> 02:26:35,520
specifically had in mind there

4350
02:26:38,870 --> 02:26:37,120
um

4351
02:26:42,469 --> 02:26:38,880
i just sent him a message once more over

4352
02:26:46,070 --> 02:26:43,670
yeah

4353
02:26:51,429 --> 02:26:48,070
yes i mean what i immediately think of

4354
02:26:54,070 --> 02:26:51,439
uh when when when i read sequestration

4355
02:26:56,550 --> 02:26:54,080
is sequestration within cells which is

4356
02:26:58,150 --> 02:26:56,560
to say you have compartments you

4357
02:27:00,469 --> 02:26:58,160
sequester

4358
02:27:03,190 --> 02:27:00,479
the machinery for respiration within the

4359
02:27:04,309 --> 02:27:03,200
compartment of mitochondria for example

4360
02:27:05,750 --> 02:27:04,319
now i don't know if that's actually what

4361
02:27:08,070 --> 02:27:05,760
he had in mind

4362
02:27:10,550 --> 02:27:08,080
but there's a lovely point about

4363
02:27:12,389 --> 02:27:10,560
bacteria which is that they are

4364
02:27:17,270 --> 02:27:12,399
essentially indivisible

4365
02:27:18,389 --> 02:27:17,280
they don't have any sequestrated bits so

4366
02:27:20,870 --> 02:27:18,399
there isn't

4367
02:27:22,790 --> 02:27:20,880
a compartment which is responsible for

4368
02:27:25,110 --> 02:27:22,800
respiration there isn't a compartment

4369
02:27:27,190 --> 02:27:25,120
which is responsible for you know

4370
02:27:30,389 --> 02:27:27,200
putting the genes in and for protecting

4371
02:27:32,550 --> 02:27:30,399
genes and so on it's a single open

4372
02:27:33,750 --> 02:27:32,560
system with a mem noise well it's not a

4373
02:27:35,030 --> 02:27:33,760
super it's actually got quite a lot of

4374
02:27:37,270 --> 02:27:35,040
structure

4375
02:27:39,590 --> 02:27:37,280
um there's a lot of interest these days

4376
02:27:41,830 --> 02:27:39,600
in phase separations between

4377
02:27:43,830 --> 02:27:41,840
effectively uh liquid liquid phase

4378
02:27:45,830 --> 02:27:43,840
separations and and you know the the

4379
02:27:48,309 --> 02:27:45,840
genes in in a bacterial cell are phase

4380
02:27:50,150 --> 02:27:48,319
separated from the cytosol

4381
02:27:52,550 --> 02:27:50,160
and there's no membrane between the two

4382
02:27:54,550 --> 02:27:52,560
of them so the compartment is

4383
02:27:56,550 --> 02:27:54,560
not a complete compartment in the same

4384
02:27:58,950 --> 02:27:56,560
way whereas the mitochondria have got a

4385
02:28:01,030 --> 02:27:58,960
membrane around them and it sequestrates

4386
02:28:04,550 --> 02:28:01,040
the inside of the mitochondria from the

4387
02:28:07,030 --> 02:28:04,560
rest of the cell and that allows you to

4388
02:28:07,830 --> 02:28:07,040
have enormously more power it allows you

4389
02:28:10,070 --> 02:28:07,840
to

4390
02:28:11,750 --> 02:28:10,080
charge up those membranes from the

4391
02:28:14,389 --> 02:28:11,760
inside let me just give one example to

4392
02:28:17,349 --> 02:28:14,399
do with with um

4393
02:28:19,349 --> 02:28:17,359
with sequestration and mitochondria

4394
02:28:21,750 --> 02:28:19,359
um

4395
02:28:24,469 --> 02:28:21,760
when when anybody thinks

4396
02:28:26,710 --> 02:28:24,479
of a mitochondria they'll tend to think

4397
02:28:28,630 --> 02:28:26,720
of a kind of sausage-shaped thing with

4398
02:28:31,270 --> 02:28:28,640
membranes inside the cell and there are

4399
02:28:33,510 --> 02:28:31,280
all these sausage-shaped things in there

4400
02:28:34,230 --> 02:28:33,520
and that's not really how they are at

4401
02:28:37,750 --> 02:28:34,240
all

4402
02:28:39,429 --> 02:28:37,760
they're very dynamic they're moving

4403
02:28:41,429 --> 02:28:39,439
around they fuse together they fission

4404
02:28:43,349 --> 02:28:41,439
apart they separate out but a lot of the

4405
02:28:44,550 --> 02:28:43,359
time they're fused together into a giant

4406
02:28:46,469 --> 02:28:44,560
network

4407
02:28:47,910 --> 02:28:46,479
uh which which kind of fills up the

4408
02:28:51,110 --> 02:28:47,920
volume of the cell

4409
02:28:52,309 --> 02:28:51,120
as a kind of branching network in there

4410
02:28:54,469 --> 02:28:52,319
um

4411
02:28:56,150 --> 02:28:54,479
and you can think of it as power cables

4412
02:28:58,230 --> 02:28:56,160
this is a much more efficient way of

4413
02:28:59,990 --> 02:28:58,240
generating energy because the charge is

4414
02:29:03,030 --> 02:29:00,000
distributed across the entire surface of

4415
02:29:04,710 --> 02:29:03,040
this network um and is much better for

4416
02:29:06,870 --> 02:29:04,720
distributing oxygen

4417
02:29:08,710 --> 02:29:06,880
around because it dissolves better in in

4418
02:29:10,550 --> 02:29:08,720
the fatty membranes than it does

4419
02:29:12,150 --> 02:29:10,560
in in aqueous solution

4420
02:29:14,230 --> 02:29:12,160
um and and so

4421
02:29:15,190 --> 02:29:14,240
it's it's probably the more efficient

4422
02:29:17,190 --> 02:29:15,200
way

4423
02:29:20,550 --> 02:29:17,200
of structuring your network to generate

4424
02:29:22,469 --> 02:29:20,560
power you can give it a power grid

4425
02:29:23,750 --> 02:29:22,479
but if you prevent it from splintering

4426
02:29:24,630 --> 02:29:23,760
up again

4427
02:29:27,990 --> 02:29:24,640
then

4428
02:29:29,670 --> 02:29:28,000
uh the cell would degenerate and die

4429
02:29:31,590 --> 02:29:29,680
it seems that it's important for

4430
02:29:33,990 --> 02:29:31,600
mitochondria to go back to being little

4431
02:29:35,670 --> 02:29:34,000
independent sausage-shaped things and if

4432
02:29:37,670 --> 02:29:35,680
you stop them from doing that then the

4433
02:29:38,550 --> 02:29:37,680
system doesn't work so why

4434
02:29:40,550 --> 02:29:38,560
well

4435
02:29:43,190 --> 02:29:40,560
because with this independent

4436
02:29:45,510 --> 02:29:43,200
sausage-shaped thing you can sequester a

4437
02:29:47,270 --> 02:29:45,520
copy of the mitochondrial dna

4438
02:29:48,870 --> 02:29:47,280
so now what we have

4439
02:29:51,349 --> 02:29:48,880
is a little sausage

4440
02:29:53,910 --> 02:29:51,359
with a genome of its own

4441
02:29:55,990 --> 02:29:53,920
and that genome is responsible for

4442
02:29:58,950 --> 02:29:56,000
making sure respiration works in that

4443
02:30:00,710 --> 02:29:58,960
mitochondrion so it's it it generates an

4444
02:30:02,790 --> 02:30:00,720
electrical charge on the membrane in its

4445
02:30:04,550 --> 02:30:02,800
own little sausage thing

4446
02:30:07,349 --> 02:30:04,560
so now we have a relationship between a

4447
02:30:09,110 --> 02:30:07,359
genotype and a phenotype the genotype is

4448
02:30:10,790 --> 02:30:09,120
that mitochondrial genome the phenotype

4449
02:30:13,110 --> 02:30:10,800
is the membrane potential the electrical

4450
02:30:15,349 --> 02:30:13,120
charge on this membrane and if if this

4451
02:30:17,270 --> 02:30:15,359
mitochondrial dna is damaged it's

4452
02:30:19,750 --> 02:30:17,280
mutated and it can't generate membrane

4453
02:30:22,550 --> 02:30:19,760
potential then the the cell machinery

4454
02:30:25,270 --> 02:30:22,560
can see that and kill it at that point

4455
02:30:26,070 --> 02:30:25,280
so it's a quality control mechanism

4456
02:30:28,309 --> 02:30:26,080
um

4457
02:30:30,710 --> 02:30:28,319
and if you if what you have is an open

4458
02:30:33,110 --> 02:30:30,720
network with let's say you know 500

4459
02:30:35,270 --> 02:30:33,120
copies of mitochondrial dna in there and

4460
02:30:36,469 --> 02:30:35,280
one of them's got mutations selection

4461
02:30:37,590 --> 02:30:36,479
can never see it because it's

4462
02:30:41,429 --> 02:30:37,600
effectively

4463
02:30:43,030 --> 02:30:41,439
its effect is is hidden by the 499 other

4464
02:30:44,630 --> 02:30:43,040
ones that are all contributing to the

4465
02:30:46,230 --> 02:30:44,640
shared common phenotype of the

4466
02:30:48,389 --> 02:30:46,240
electrical charge across this entire

4467
02:30:50,469 --> 02:30:48,399
network so you'll never notice it so you

4468
02:30:51,750 --> 02:30:50,479
can't get rid of it so more mutations

4469
02:30:54,070 --> 02:30:51,760
can happen

4470
02:30:55,830 --> 02:30:54,080
so so the very fact that we all have

4471
02:30:58,070 --> 02:30:55,840
mitochondria which are still functional

4472
02:30:59,349 --> 02:30:58,080
after two billion years of evolution

4473
02:31:01,349 --> 02:30:59,359
is because the selection on the

4474
02:31:03,030 --> 02:31:01,359
mitochondrial dna which is because of

4475
02:31:05,590 --> 02:31:03,040
sequestration

4476
02:31:07,590 --> 02:31:05,600
of the mitochondria within

4477
02:31:09,030 --> 02:31:07,600
the eukaryotic cell and that is the

4478
02:31:10,950 --> 02:31:09,040
difference between

4479
02:31:13,270 --> 02:31:10,960
lots of e coli between a planet full of

4480
02:31:15,910 --> 02:31:13,280
bacteria that basically can never

4481
02:31:18,070 --> 02:31:15,920
get beyond bacteria and the planet full

4482
02:31:19,510 --> 02:31:18,080
of eukaryotic life plants and animals

4483
02:31:22,070 --> 02:31:19,520
and everything else

4484
02:31:25,030 --> 02:31:22,080
that's the result of sequestration of

4485
02:31:26,710 --> 02:31:25,040
bacteria inside other cells with their

4486
02:31:28,389 --> 02:31:26,720
own dna now i don't know if that's what

4487
02:31:30,630 --> 02:31:28,399
he had in mind but that's what comes to

4488
02:31:31,750 --> 02:31:30,640
my mind when when when you asked me

4489
02:31:34,150 --> 02:31:31,760
about that

4490
02:31:37,190 --> 02:31:34,160
sure and now a near final question comes

4491
02:31:39,030 --> 02:31:37,200
from user rh0d3z

4492
02:31:41,190 --> 02:31:39,040
which says this is much more of a

4493
02:31:43,750 --> 02:31:41,200
technical question what are proflain's

4494
02:31:46,710 --> 02:31:43,760
views on mitochondrial resperosomes

4495
02:31:49,030 --> 02:31:46,720
slash supercomplexes in disease this may

4496
02:31:51,510 --> 02:31:49,040
be particularly important seeing that

4497
02:31:53,510 --> 02:31:51,520
they can omit complex ii and bypass

4498
02:31:56,950 --> 02:31:53,520
krebs cycle pathways

4499
02:31:59,590 --> 02:31:56,960
yes um very interesting question there

4500
02:32:00,950 --> 02:31:59,600
are actually some recently there's uh

4501
02:32:03,030 --> 02:32:00,960
there's one super complex has been

4502
02:32:05,510 --> 02:32:03,040
discovered with uh with complex two in

4503
02:32:06,630 --> 02:32:05,520
it uh but mostly

4504
02:32:08,870 --> 02:32:06,640
whoever asked the question is quite

4505
02:32:11,110 --> 02:32:08,880
right complex two is not normally part

4506
02:32:13,349 --> 02:32:11,120
of it um

4507
02:32:16,230 --> 02:32:13,359
so for people who don't know

4508
02:32:17,910 --> 02:32:16,240
um the the super complexes

4509
02:32:20,070 --> 02:32:17,920
normally what you have or normally how

4510
02:32:22,710 --> 02:32:20,080
we're taught and what we imagine is that

4511
02:32:24,950 --> 02:32:22,720
we have four or five complexes from

4512
02:32:26,950 --> 02:32:24,960
complex one complex two complex three

4513
02:32:28,389 --> 02:32:26,960
complex four and the electrons pass from

4514
02:32:30,870 --> 02:32:28,399
one to the next one to the next one and

4515
02:32:33,349 --> 02:32:30,880
so on um complex two is always a little

4516
02:32:35,429 --> 02:32:33,359
bit on the side in that sense

4517
02:32:37,030 --> 02:32:35,439
uh they go from complex one to complex

4518
02:32:38,550 --> 02:32:37,040
three and then to complex four then

4519
02:32:39,590 --> 02:32:38,560
dental oxygen

4520
02:32:41,349 --> 02:32:39,600
um

4521
02:32:43,590 --> 02:32:41,359
now

4522
02:32:44,950 --> 02:32:43,600
the respirosome or the super complexes

4523
02:32:46,389 --> 02:32:44,960
are where these complexes are brought

4524
02:32:48,870 --> 02:32:46,399
together very often with a specific

4525
02:32:51,750 --> 02:32:48,880
stoichiometry so you might have uh two

4526
02:32:53,429 --> 02:32:51,760
complex ones and and one complex three

4527
02:32:54,950 --> 02:32:53,439
and one complex four or various other

4528
02:32:56,790 --> 02:32:54,960
stoichiometries of these things where

4529
02:32:59,429 --> 02:32:56,800
you have fixed numbers of these things

4530
02:33:00,309 --> 02:32:59,439
they fit together in snug ways

4531
02:33:02,710 --> 02:33:00,319
and

4532
02:33:05,349 --> 02:33:02,720
until about ten years ago

4533
02:33:07,349 --> 02:33:05,359
um it was their existence was kind of

4534
02:33:08,870 --> 02:33:07,359
denied almost it was it's quite

4535
02:33:10,950 --> 02:33:08,880
difficult to demonstrate that they

4536
02:33:12,469 --> 02:33:10,960
really do exist that they're really real

4537
02:33:14,710 --> 02:33:12,479
now it's generally established that they

4538
02:33:17,429 --> 02:33:14,720
are and there's a lot of cryo-electron

4539
02:33:18,389 --> 02:33:17,439
microscopy shows that these things are

4540
02:33:19,750 --> 02:33:18,399
real

4541
02:33:21,910 --> 02:33:19,760
um but there's a lot that's still not

4542
02:33:23,750 --> 02:33:21,920
known about them do they really speed up

4543
02:33:25,190 --> 02:33:23,760
respiration for example

4544
02:33:27,670 --> 02:33:25,200
seems that they do

4545
02:33:30,389 --> 02:33:27,680
um but there's you know it's early days

4546
02:33:32,309 --> 02:33:30,399
in in this field now the specific bit

4547
02:33:34,309 --> 02:33:32,319
about complex ii

4548
02:33:36,230 --> 02:33:34,319
as part of the krebs cycle it's the only

4549
02:33:38,790 --> 02:33:36,240
enzyme in the krebs cycle which is

4550
02:33:40,469 --> 02:33:38,800
anchored into the membrane itself

4551
02:33:42,790 --> 02:33:40,479
and which is

4552
02:33:43,990 --> 02:33:42,800
effectively passing electrons directly

4553
02:33:46,830 --> 02:33:44,000
but it's excluded from these

4554
02:33:49,429 --> 02:33:46,840
supercomplexes

4555
02:33:50,790 --> 02:33:49,439
um how that works i

4556
02:33:53,910 --> 02:33:50,800
don't know

4557
02:33:58,550 --> 02:33:57,030
there's a i i think it's

4558
02:34:02,389 --> 02:33:58,560
that i mean there's some very strange

4559
02:34:05,590 --> 02:34:02,399
factors here so so so complex one is the

4560
02:34:07,349 --> 02:34:05,600
only one that that oxidizes nadh and i

4561
02:34:08,710 --> 02:34:07,359
don't want to get too technical here but

4562
02:34:10,389 --> 02:34:08,720
it's the only one which is really

4563
02:34:11,429 --> 02:34:10,399
capable of spinning the whole krebs

4564
02:34:13,590 --> 02:34:11,439
cycle

4565
02:34:15,670 --> 02:34:13,600
so if complex one is is deficient or

4566
02:34:16,710 --> 02:34:15,680
broken then the krebs cycle can't work

4567
02:34:18,309 --> 02:34:16,720
properly

4568
02:34:20,070 --> 02:34:18,319
um

4569
02:34:22,309 --> 02:34:20,080
if it's part of a respirosome it's

4570
02:34:24,230 --> 02:34:22,319
likely to be operating at a faster rate

4571
02:34:25,830 --> 02:34:24,240
and it's likely to spin the krebs cycle

4572
02:34:28,150 --> 02:34:25,840
faster than it would otherwise be able

4573
02:34:29,830 --> 02:34:28,160
to spin but it also depends on the

4574
02:34:31,590 --> 02:34:29,840
structure of the christie and all kinds

4575
02:34:33,910 --> 02:34:31,600
of other factors so there's a kind of

4576
02:34:35,670 --> 02:34:33,920
macromolecular scale of organization of

4577
02:34:37,190 --> 02:34:35,680
mitochondria that we don't know a lot

4578
02:34:39,590 --> 02:34:37,200
about yet

4579
02:34:41,349 --> 02:34:39,600
uh and it's definitely important i

4580
02:34:43,270 --> 02:34:41,359
mentioned fission and fusion of

4581
02:34:45,670 --> 02:34:43,280
mitochondrial networks and you know all

4582
02:34:46,710 --> 02:34:45,680
of this is is linked it's a very dynamic

4583
02:34:48,710 --> 02:34:46,720
system

4584
02:34:51,270 --> 02:34:48,720
uh so

4585
02:34:53,910 --> 02:34:51,280
the interesting thing about complex two

4586
02:34:55,990 --> 02:34:53,920
is it pumps fewer protons

4587
02:34:59,349 --> 02:34:56,000
than complex if you if you if you put

4588
02:35:00,710 --> 02:34:59,359
electrons into complex two

4589
02:35:02,630 --> 02:35:00,720
and then they go into three and then

4590
02:35:04,309 --> 02:35:02,640
four you can pump a total of six protons

4591
02:35:06,070 --> 02:35:04,319
whereas if you put them into complex one

4592
02:35:07,990 --> 02:35:06,080
they can pump a total of ten

4593
02:35:09,110 --> 02:35:08,000
protons so you may think then that

4594
02:35:11,429 --> 02:35:09,120
there's more

4595
02:35:14,070 --> 02:35:11,439
power if you like but it's actually it's

4596
02:35:15,830 --> 02:35:14,080
not power so much as gearing

4597
02:35:18,230 --> 02:35:15,840
so it's like being if you're using

4598
02:35:21,030 --> 02:35:18,240
complex one it's like being in in a high

4599
02:35:22,790 --> 02:35:21,040
gear on a bike you can be in tenth gear

4600
02:35:25,670 --> 02:35:22,800
or something and you you can coast very

4601
02:35:27,190 --> 02:35:25,680
easily along along a flat road but if

4602
02:35:29,349 --> 02:35:27,200
you get onto a hill then you want to go

4603
02:35:31,270 --> 02:35:29,359
down to a lower gear

4604
02:35:32,389 --> 02:35:31,280
and a lower gear in the mitochondria if

4605
02:35:34,469 --> 02:35:32,399
you're putting if you're putting

4606
02:35:36,710 --> 02:35:34,479
electrons into complex two

4607
02:35:38,630 --> 02:35:36,720
effectively uh you've got almost the

4608
02:35:40,950 --> 02:35:38,640
same amount of power which is to say the

4609
02:35:42,230 --> 02:35:40,960
the the the

4610
02:35:43,830 --> 02:35:42,240
energy that's released when the

4611
02:35:45,830 --> 02:35:43,840
electrons that go into complex two get

4612
02:35:47,429 --> 02:35:45,840
through to oxygen is not quite as much

4613
02:35:48,710 --> 02:35:47,439
as when it's coming from nadh but it's

4614
02:35:51,030 --> 02:35:48,720
nearly the same

4615
02:35:52,870 --> 02:35:51,040
but that total energy amount is only

4616
02:35:54,870 --> 02:35:52,880
pumping six protons rather than ten

4617
02:35:56,870 --> 02:35:54,880
protons so you've got nearly the same

4618
02:35:59,190 --> 02:35:56,880
energy pumping fewer protons and that

4619
02:36:00,389 --> 02:35:59,200
means you can pump them against a higher

4620
02:36:02,389 --> 02:36:00,399
potential

4621
02:36:04,550 --> 02:36:02,399
it's you can go uphill now

4622
02:36:05,429 --> 02:36:04,560
you can effectively

4623
02:36:07,590 --> 02:36:05,439
um

4624
02:36:10,550 --> 02:36:07,600
switch down to you know second or third

4625
02:36:12,710 --> 02:36:10,560
gear or something and and keep on going

4626
02:36:14,389 --> 02:36:12,720
now how all of this works itself out in

4627
02:36:16,070 --> 02:36:14,399
terms of super complexes and christy

4628
02:36:18,309 --> 02:36:16,080
structure and everything else i don't

4629
02:36:19,990 --> 02:36:18,319
really know it will have a feedback

4630
02:36:22,070 --> 02:36:20,000
effect on the krebs cycle because the

4631
02:36:23,830 --> 02:36:22,080
krebs cycle needs to go through this

4632
02:36:25,830 --> 02:36:23,840
step if it's not going to

4633
02:36:27,830 --> 02:36:25,840
increase succinate levels which leak out

4634
02:36:31,110 --> 02:36:27,840
and that's an epigenetic switch which

4635
02:36:35,670 --> 02:36:32,150
this is

4636
02:36:37,349 --> 02:36:35,680
it's hardly been

4637
02:36:38,950 --> 02:36:37,359
explored

4638
02:36:40,550 --> 02:36:38,960
i mean this is a fantastic thing about

4639
02:36:41,910 --> 02:36:40,560
science we in some ways we seem to know

4640
02:36:44,150 --> 02:36:41,920
so much and in other ways there's this

4641
02:36:45,990 --> 02:36:44,160
kind of jungle of of dynamic

4642
02:36:47,670 --> 02:36:46,000
mitochondria that are changing shape

4643
02:36:49,349 --> 02:36:47,680
that are forming christie's that have

4644
02:36:51,110 --> 02:36:49,359
got an organization they're probably

4645
02:36:53,670 --> 02:36:51,120
generating electric magnetic fields that

4646
02:36:55,429 --> 02:36:53,680
are forming super complexes that are

4647
02:36:56,630 --> 02:36:55,439
have they you know if you've got a

4648
02:36:58,469 --> 02:36:56,640
closed christie structure and you're

4649
02:37:01,270 --> 02:36:58,479
pumping protons into it

4650
02:37:02,309 --> 02:37:01,280
there's a you know the limits that

4651
02:37:05,590 --> 02:37:02,319
you can

4652
02:37:08,070 --> 02:37:05,600
membrane potential if you put succinate

4653
02:37:11,190 --> 02:37:08,080
in a complex two than if you put an adh

4654
02:37:11,990 --> 02:37:11,200
unit complex one so you have this

4655
02:37:17,590 --> 02:37:12,000
th

4656
02:37:19,270 --> 02:37:17,600
only

4657
02:37:20,790 --> 02:37:19,280
hardly been touched on

4658
02:37:22,550 --> 02:37:20,800
um between one christian and other

4659
02:37:24,469 --> 02:37:22,560
christians if you've got a super complex

4660
02:37:26,469 --> 02:37:24,479
or you don't have super complex as if

4661
02:37:29,030 --> 02:37:26,479
complex two is part of it or not part of

4662
02:37:31,429 --> 02:37:29,040
it you know there's a world out there

4663
02:37:33,670 --> 02:37:31,439
that we've barely discovered and it's a

4664
02:37:34,870 --> 02:37:33,680
world frankly of physics

4665
02:37:38,950 --> 02:37:34,880
this is

4666
02:37:40,389 --> 02:37:38,960
pushing against charge and this the

4667
02:37:41,750 --> 02:37:40,399
power and it's the energetics of the

4668
02:37:43,910 --> 02:37:41,760
whole thing so it's it's not

4669
02:37:47,830 --> 02:37:43,920
conventional biology but this is

4670
02:37:48,710 --> 02:37:47,840
to my mind where biology needs to go

4671
02:37:50,630 --> 02:37:48,720
thank you

4672
02:37:52,710 --> 02:37:50,640
professor and we didn't get to talk

4673
02:37:54,710 --> 02:37:52,720
maybe next time we can talk about if we

4674
02:37:56,389 --> 02:37:54,720
if i'm so blessed just to be with you

4675
02:37:59,349 --> 02:37:56,399
again thank you to talk about the

4676
02:37:59,670 --> 02:37:59,359
reverse krebs cycle and

4677
02:38:00,790 --> 02:37:59,680
it aging

4678
02:38:03,030 --> 02:38:00,800
be a pleasure to come back that was a

4679
02:38:05,349 --> 02:38:03,040
lot of fun thank you yeah do you mind

4680
02:38:07,110 --> 02:38:05,359
ending by reading the poem from the last

4681
02:38:09,590 --> 02:38:07,120
chapter or the last bit of your book i

4682
02:38:11,190 --> 02:38:09,600
believe it's a short poem

4683
02:38:12,870 --> 02:38:11,200
i'm happy to do that do i have a copy of

4684
02:38:15,349 --> 02:38:12,880
the book anywhere near

4685
02:38:16,550 --> 02:38:15,359
um i have to go and get one just give me

4686
02:38:17,910 --> 02:38:16,560
a moment

4687
02:38:19,830 --> 02:38:17,920
i don't know that this will make sense

4688
02:38:21,670 --> 02:38:19,840
to anybody who hasn't read the book but

4689
02:38:22,870 --> 02:38:21,680
it's a it's a it's a beautiful poem

4690
02:38:23,910 --> 02:38:22,880
anyway

4691
02:38:25,670 --> 02:38:23,920
uh

4692
02:38:27,349 --> 02:38:25,680
i don't know how much sense it would

4693
02:38:30,150 --> 02:38:27,359
make

4694
02:38:32,870 --> 02:38:30,160
even without the context of the book yes

4695
02:38:35,349 --> 02:38:32,880
so this is like most revelations by

4696
02:38:38,469 --> 02:38:35,359
richard howard

4697
02:38:41,670 --> 02:38:38,479
it is the movement that incites the form

4698
02:38:43,830 --> 02:38:41,680
discovered as a downward rapture yes it

4699
02:38:46,309 --> 02:38:43,840
is the movement that delights the form

4700
02:38:48,790 --> 02:38:46,319
sustained by its own velocity

4701
02:38:51,349 --> 02:38:48,800
and yet it is the movement that delays

4702
02:38:53,830 --> 02:38:51,359
the form while darkness slows and

4703
02:38:56,630 --> 02:38:53,840
encumbers in fact it is the movement

4704
02:38:59,750 --> 02:38:56,640
that betrays the form baffled in such

4705
02:39:02,150 --> 02:38:59,760
toils of ease until it is the movement

4706
02:39:04,469 --> 02:39:02,160
that deceives the form beguiling our

4707
02:39:07,349 --> 02:39:04,479
attention we suppose it is the movement

4708
02:39:09,030 --> 02:39:07,359
that achieves the form were we mistaken

4709
02:39:11,110 --> 02:39:09,040
what does it matter if it is the

4710
02:39:13,990 --> 02:39:11,120
movement that negates the form

4711
02:39:16,630 --> 02:39:14,000
even though we give give up ourselves to

4712
02:39:21,670 --> 02:39:16,640
this mortal process of continuing

4713
02:39:25,030 --> 02:39:23,670
oh

4714
02:39:27,030 --> 02:39:25,040
well thank you

4715
02:39:28,710 --> 02:39:27,040
thank you professor for being with me

4716
02:39:29,990 --> 02:39:28,720
with the tow audience for

4717
02:39:31,429 --> 02:39:30,000
for so long

4718
02:39:32,630 --> 02:39:31,439
thank you for having me on it's been a

4719
02:39:34,469 --> 02:39:32,640
pleasure

4720
02:39:36,550 --> 02:39:34,479
okay all right thank you thank you for

4721
02:39:38,950 --> 02:39:36,560
sticking around for two and a half hours

4722
02:39:40,950 --> 02:39:38,960
maybe maybe longer i appreciate that i

4723
02:39:43,750 --> 02:39:40,960
hope that it was enjoyable to you again

4724
02:39:45,030 --> 02:39:43,760
there's the website theoriesofthing.org

4725
02:39:47,110 --> 02:39:45,040
that's a place that you can go to

4726
02:39:48,309 --> 02:39:47,120
support toe if you're interested in that

4727
02:39:50,309 --> 02:39:48,319
like i mentioned in the intro there are

4728
02:39:52,630 --> 02:39:50,319
several benefits you get an ads free

4729
02:39:55,590 --> 02:39:52,640
audio version you get that

4730
02:39:57,670 --> 02:39:55,600
sometimes 12 to 48 hours to a few days

4731
02:39:59,190 --> 02:39:57,680
prior to premiering on youtube you get

4732
02:40:01,030 --> 02:39:59,200
discounts to the live events when we

4733
02:40:03,270 --> 02:40:01,040
finally do have them sometimes those

4734
02:40:05,190 --> 02:40:03,280
tickets may even be free so for instance

4735
02:40:07,030 --> 02:40:05,200
i'm looking into doing something with

4736
02:40:09,030 --> 02:40:07,040
john verveiki and ian mcgillcrist in

4737
02:40:10,870 --> 02:40:09,040
person this is all extremely tentative

4738
02:40:13,270 --> 02:40:10,880
right now but this is a plan to do in

4739
02:40:14,790 --> 02:40:13,280
the future carl fristen in london live

4740
02:40:16,630 --> 02:40:14,800
in front of an audience is another

4741
02:40:18,550 --> 02:40:16,640
example there will be exclusive merch

4742
02:40:20,070 --> 02:40:18,560
and so on there's quite a few benefits

4743
02:40:21,590 --> 02:40:20,080
you can text me if you like there's a

4744
02:40:23,990 --> 02:40:21,600
number at least we're testing that for

4745
02:40:25,830 --> 02:40:24,000
about one week or one month or so again

4746
02:40:27,670 --> 02:40:25,840
that's theoriesofthing.org

4747
02:40:29,510 --> 02:40:27,680
thank you all for watching it's great to

4748
02:40:31,670 --> 02:40:29,520
see you in the live chat i appreciate

4749
02:40:34,950 --> 02:40:31,680
all of the love thank you thank you so

4750
02:40:38,630 --> 02:40:36,870
the podcast is now finished if you'd

4751
02:40:39,910 --> 02:40:38,640
like to support conversations like this

4752
02:40:41,510 --> 02:40:39,920
then do consider going to

4753
02:40:43,270 --> 02:40:41,520
theoriesofeverything.org

4754
02:40:44,870 --> 02:40:43,280
it's support from the patrons and from

4755
02:40:46,469 --> 02:40:44,880
the sponsors that allow me to do this